Can you and if not can HPS look at changing it?

[Rev Rico]

Are there any players who can verify that the manual is correct or who feel like me, that rubble is easily achieved and then permanent?

I don't bother to even try anymore because clearing NEVER happened for me. I wasted engineer units for days trying to clear rubble in Bulge44 when I first started playing. Now, I just deal with the mess.

[Engelbrekt]

You will never completely clear RUBBLE but will go from RUBBLE status to rubble status

Of course, we are talking about RUBBLE here. RUBBLE never becomes Rubble, thats the point.

[Tortue Agile]

If you play on the Russian side at Stalingrad you will have the chance to see from time to time a RUBBLE becoming rubble... and you will notice it

[Marquo]

The mine laying issue is quite real; the Russians closed the Korsun pocket by laying tens of thousands of mines along the western edge, something we can never do in PzC.

We can't have everything...:rolleyes:

Marquo :)

[Glenn Saunders]

The mine laying issue is quite real; the Russians closed the Korsun pocket by laying tens of thousands of mines along the western edge, something we can never do in PzC.

We can't have everything...:rolleyes:

Marquo :)

I dunno Marquo - I might disagree with this example. If I recall right when the Korsun pocket was formed it tore a HUGE hole in the German line and they had no troops to fill that hole. Now true the Russians did start laying mines - lots of them and the German Radio INTEL picket up on this too. So the Germans knew the RUssians were not continuing on offense as they had previously, like on account of the Bloody nose they were dealt with "the Back Hand Blow" the year before.

This action by the Soviets to lay mines, and the Germans to know the Russians were not continuing the advance allowed them to mass some troops for a relief push rather than to stretch them to hold a line. So I don't really think it was a line of Soviet Mines which prevented action by filling a hole.

Furthermore - if that is what players want - the ability to lay mines everywhere - then set the Digging in Value to be something very high - like 100% and the result will be that Mines are created 50% of the time. Of course, there will be a lot of IPs and TRENCHES created, but it will work.

I ran up against this issue in Alamein when both sides created huge and think mine belts between the first and the second battle of Alamein. But these mine belts took MONTHS to build, even though the ground was ideal for laying mines really. And lets face it - days, weeks and even months at 2 hour turns while Mines are created at a realistic rate would not make for a fun PzC Game in my opinion. But then again, that is doable too if you like.

But in the Alamein game I elected to handle it as two different phases or start points and didn't try to model the build up of these thick defense belts.

Glenn

[Engelbrekt]

I´m no mathematician or especially skilled in statistics, but I made some quick tests. I made a test scenario using Moscow 41, and turned 50 hexes of Moscow city into RUBBLE. I placed 50 engineer units in those hexes, all identical with 500 men and morale C. I placed another identical 50 engineer units outside the city in various terrain. The PDT gives a Digging-In chance of 10%, which in turn affects Clearing Rubble and Mine Laying, as we can see in the Manual as Glenn said above.

In the first test I had the city engineers Clear Rubble and the others Digging-In. The Diggers were all complete in 8 turns, that is they had all built improved and then trench. In the first turn all 50 succeeded, a freak result I suppose. Then the rate slowed, 23->17->6->3, but all except one unit were complete in 5 turns. I then remembered that engineers dig-in twice as fast so that part of the test is not so useful, as results should be halved.
The 50 Rubble clearers worked hard for 17 turns, averaging 1.3 cleared hexes per turn. The highest was 3 in one turn (three instances), the lowest 0 (four instances). After 17 turns 22 hexes had been cleared. The average clearing success in percent was 3.3.

A made a second test, where the 50 engineers outside Moscow were laying Mines instead, while the Rubble clearers kept on their work. In 17 turns 27 hexes were cleared of RUBBLE and 28 hexes were laid with mines. That is roughly 1.6 hexes per turn. Per turn that is 4% if I have calculated correctly, so somewhat less than the 5% that we could expect according to the manual. This test did had several high freak results that could push the numbers up, giving a faulty result. Or the first test is faulty.

So I have perhaps proven myself wrong, the test (admittedly limited) point to something lower than what the manual says but not by much. But I still have the feeling that Clearing Rubble is less than slower than half the Digging-In probability.

(and yes, I felt a bit like Stalin doing this, forcing 50 000 Red Army engineers to work day and night for the greater good :) )

[Glenn Saunders]

Right - but keep in mind Rubble clearing is a really ABSTRACT concept in this series and what is done for ONE title affects ALL Titles. So 500 man Btln in Moscow and whatever your results, might sound ok with the digging value of 25%.

Now move to Normandy '44 - where the Dgging value is also 25% and the villages are generally stone villages. Now add to this that Airborne Engs Companies with 50 men and no specialized equipment would have the same results and that might not fit near as well.

To be honest, I ddn't agree with John when he added Rubble clearing - I agrued that it opened up more funny situations than it corrected. But players wanted it and he did it. I thought for a long time I was wrong and maybe it was a good idea after all. But now I am not so sure.

Glenn

[Marquo]

My point about the mines and Korsun was simply that they could be laid rather quickly when/if needed. Anyway, if it gets to the point of laying vast minefields, then we are talking a game of static defense, which personally I do not find so appealing.

Marquo :)