Air and Artillery by the Map Optional Rule for D85

[Aaron]

I agree with Al, it dosnt take any time at all for SP ART to stop setup and fire a volley and then move to another location and towed units yes they do take longer but with default game turns being 3 hours they can easily stop setup fire a couple volleys and be back in their trucks well before the 3 hours would be up, the setup rule is no good.

Aaron

[tbridges]

Here is what the Rules dialog says about it:

"Indirect Fire and Air Strikes By The Map – when this rule is selected, it is possible to target Indirect Fire and Air Strikes against any hex regardless of whether it is spotted by a friendly unit. However, when Indirect Fire is fired against a hex that is not spotted by a friendly unit, its fire value is quartered."

[Volcano Man]

Yes the 1/4 fire value against an unspotted unit has always been there, but the issue is when you mass every artillery unit on the map and, as long as you fire on a spotted enemy, you can mass artillery with devistating effects.

If however the recent HQ / detached unit rules help out here then the old play balance issue of indirect fire by map is not so important anymore. It would be fairly easy to test, just load a map up with artillery units of the same type but from different organizations. Then have a spotter belong to the organization of one of the units and compare the results.

[Volcano Man]

I agree with Al, it dosnt take any time at all for SP ART to stop setup and fire a volley and then move to another location and towed units yes they do take longer but with default game turns being 3 hours they can easily stop setup fire a couple volleys and be back in their trucks well before the 3 hours would be up, the setup rule is no good.

Aaron

Well, in the MC series (or maybe it was in PzC and MC?) there is a condition where if the artillery setup (PDT value) is at a certain high level value (>80% or >90% ?) then SP artillery do not have to be setup, thus making the setup process only applicable to towed guns if the values are within that range. Unless the scenario is set in the 1950s to 1970s, and given the amount of hours per turn, there is no reason why artillery setup levels shouldn't be in that upper (ignore SPG setup) levels.

[Glenn Saunders]

Yes the 1/4 fire value against an unspotted unit has always been there, but the issue is when you mass every artillery unit on the map and, as long as you fire on a spotted enemy, you can mass artillery with devistating effects.

Guys:

Adding to what Ed is saying here - the situation as I see it is this.

When one is discussion the rules and how it could and might work in practical terms one can easily rationalize that a Btty could fire in support of any unit, it would seem like a good idea to turn ON the rule.

However, what happens then in practice is that players are able to view the map from a different POV from a general and can setup a situation where EVERY friggen gun in a sector fires at one critical target hex at the complete exclusion of all fire to all other locations.

This sets up what we see as a strange and unrealistic situation because you know some of these other units will get some arty fire in the course of a 3 hour day game turn.

That said - it is an optional rule and of course you are free to use it if you feel it makes the game better. I suspect it would help the WP player as NATO is more often spread out and not concentrating their fire to that high a density.

Glenn

[Aaron]

Tell u the truth i dont understand any of this conversation, massed artillery, my does the optional rule have to be checked to have a problem with massed artillery. If u dont use this rule u can still mass your artillery! Take all 8 art units in 1 division and fire all at one hex. The only thing this rule does is let u fire on any hex on the map even if its not spotted by a unit in your organization. And u do get penalized severely for this with reduced attack down to 1/4. It would take 4 art units to do the damage of one. Dosnt seem very efficient to me to be massing my artillery when its does little damage. The good thing on this rule is it lets u drop art mines anywhere on the map, the only thing u have to think about is how damn far can that M109 fire.

Aaron

[timshin42]

Field Artillery tactics simulated by "indirect fire by the map" were developed by the American Army during WWII annd refined during KOREA as were the command and signal capabilities to put them to effective use. I have seen no reason to believe that Wermacht Field Artillery command and signal was not equally as sophisticated. I kind of doubt if the Soviets had that capability during WWII, but have no real knowledge about that.

Certainly during the '60s, when I was FDO for several different FA Battalions, "indirect fire by the map" was quite routine, nothing out of the ordinary. (Recall: Direct Support, Reinforcing, General Support, General Support Reinforcing). Definitely by the "Modern Campaigns" era, the capability to do so was standard for both sides.

Have communicated previously with Glenn my preferences for more sophisticated fire planning and fire support coordination tactics in Panzer Campaigns and Modern Campaigns. I believe we agreed that the gaming population with the interest and patience to utilize them was probably not large enough to warrant much action along that line.

Bottom line, IMO, playing Modern Campaigns WITHOUT "indirect fire by the map" is an unrealistic distortion of modern Field Artillery practices, though I can accept that some experienced "maneuver branch" players may disagree with me.

[timshin42]

One further comment: per U.S. Army artillery tactical doctrine, field artillery units always have a mission (DS, R, GS, GSR) and are NEVER in reserve.
So if an INFANTRY DIVISION were in reserve, with no organic spotters on line to see potential targets, that divisions entire DIVARTy would be unable to fire at all, even if many good targets were within range of all the DIVARTY M109 "Paladins". That situation would be total nonsense!

[Volcano Man]

...Take all 8 art units in 1 division and fire all at one hex...

The issue is not massing artillery in the manner you describe, it is being able --if the user so wanted to-- to mass every single artillery unit on the map from say, five soviet armies, and put them in one area and use it as a death ray to annihilate everything in its path. Will someone do that with this rule on? It has been done in the past in some campaigns over the many years. But really, that is not the point; I was only mentioning it in passing yet people seem to get so uptight about things! ;)

The good thing on this rule is it lets u drop art mines anywhere on the map, the only thing u have to think about is how damn far can that M109 fire.

Actually, you do not need the rule for that either. All alternative artillery fire (FASCAM, and NBC) can be executed at map locations without the need of spotting.

One further comment: per U.S. Army artillery tactical doctrine, field artillery units always have a mission (DS, R, GS, GSR) and are NEVER in reserve.
So if an INFANTRY DIVISION were in reserve, with no organic spotters on line to see potential targets, that divisions entire DIVARTy would be unable to fire at all, even if many good targets were within range of all the DIVARTY M109 "Paladins". That situation would be total nonsense!

I agree with the principle of what you are saying. However, I don't think the issue is whether or not an artillery unit CAN execute a strike by grid coordinate, surely they can do that since most of the artillery strikes I have every called are done that way anyway. The issue is the chain of command and how communication goes up and down between a specific artillery unit of a certain organization and a unit that is requesting artillery from the same organization. I don't think that a unit in a seperate corps could easily request an artillery strike from a neighboring corps, much less from a diferent division -- or at least I have never seen that happen. On the other hand, in the real world artillery units can be reassigned and tasked out where needed and this is represented *sufficiently* with corps level assets. Divisions can be assigned or even corps level assets can be assigned to different corps depending on how an OOB is organized in the game. I stress "sufficiently" because it is not perfect but I think it realistic enough given that what it is trying to accomplish.

What it comes down to is abstractions though due to making a wargame. Obviously the artillery model could be improved quite a bit but to say that a unit should be able to make a radio call and summon corps and divisional artillery from any unit in the area, especially if the unit calling for fire isn't part of any of those organizations, is just as much nonsense. I guess in the end it really doesn't matter, it just depends on how the game is played. Smaller scenarios certainly would not have an issue and if you play a reasonable opponent there would not be anything gamey to worry about. But really, most people apparently play only to win anyway and if they can get away with it they will do it.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the rule. I have played with it on in the past but I generally prefer not to use it because (by not using it) it encourages unit integrity. Most veteran PzC and MC gamers will tell you that these games need everything they can muster to encourage unit integrity and keep people from scattering units all over the map and, in this regard, many rules have been instituted over the years to do help in this area.

Anyway, I only mentioned the issue in the original post to provide the other side of the story of what can be abused with it and therefore why it is an optional rule and not a default one. I do agree with what you are saying about US FA units being tasked out when their divisions are in reserve, I do not mean to imply that I disagree with the principle of what you are saying, I guess I am only saying that limitations must be made in a wargame or otherwise it wouldn't make sense (in the real world) to have artillery units assigned to any specific organization in the first place.

[CptCav]

Another point to make is with the ability to hit a hex (choke point) without seeing it, a situation can exist where a WMD, specifically a nuke, is set off in that hex making it a major obstacle. This could have a major impact on the play of a smaller scenario.

Regards,
CptCav