T41/Ea42 Alt ZOC change.

[Peter777]

Sounds like a good change to at least test in a few games.

I am sure we have all experienced a PZ Division being isolated by a hand full of recon and bren gun carrier units and then not being able to break out. The 100s of British Recon Units just seemed to tough, to flexible vs my Tanks and Infantry.


Peter777

[Volcano Man]

Sounds like a good change to at least test in a few games.

I am sure we have all experienced a PZ Division being isolated by a hand full of recon and bren gun carrier units and then not being able to break out. The 100s of British Recon Units just seemed to tough, to flexible vs my Tanks and Infantry.

Right, they can still get in there and isolate units but now you will at least see them coming and can fall back and react to keep them from infiltrating. Instead it keeps those enemy recon units from swarming with the intent that you will not be able to move away fast enough while the rest of the enemy AC line continues further and further forward in order to project the ZOC "shield" to prevent you from relieving them. The common aggressive tactic was that the enemy tanks or infantry would then come up to finish of your infiltrated forces at their leisure.

You bring to mind another reason for the change in the sense that these turn based games must take into account what is not possible in the mechanics of the game itself, which is, if you had enemy vehicles moving by you then you would naturally fall back and / or maneuver accordingly. In a turned based game this is not possible as they sit there as you drive up to and right past them. With stronger ZOCs it allow those units to have a chance to fall back, or at least allows the possibility for you to make a conscious decision to remain where you are and let the enemy move through you.

[Mr Grumpy]

You bring to mind another reason for the change in the sense that these turn based games must take into account what is not possible in the mechanics of the game itself, which is, if you had enemy vehicles moving by you then you would naturally fall back and / or maneuver accordingly. In a turned based game this is not possible as they sit there as you drive up to and right past them. With stronger ZOCs it allow those units to have a chance to fall back, or at least allows the possibility for you to make a conscious decision to remain where you are and let the enemy move through you.

Yup i agree, as i said in an earlier thread the ZOC rule was invented to protect your units from enemy movement on your opponents turn when you cannot react.

While i the "soft" version of the ZOC rules is 100% correct for desert titles, i can only guess that the designer did not see the potential problem of a aggresive player exploiting the very high AC units mp allowence and moving through ZOC to constantly create isolation situations.

As Rick said if soft ZOC did not block supply then the change would possibily not be justified. :chin:

Good stuff this, nice to hear everybodys views.......... :)

[HMCS Rosthern]

What if there were no ZOCs?

[fastphil]

A Question.

Would it be feasible to just give the recon no ZOC-like HQ? Then let him do the LRDG thing without him blocking supply(except) by his physical presence. I am in the midst of Granzani's Advance in EA42. The British Counterattack is scheduled next I am the Italians in both so maybe we will give the ALT a try.:chin: :bow:

[Volcano Man]

What if there were no ZOCs?

If there were no ZOCs then you would have Tobruk '41 v1.0. You can go back to that and try it out in you want. ;)

Fastphil, there is no way to take away the ZOC for recon units only in the manner in which you describe.

[Dog Soldier]

I agree with Foul that the desert begs as fourth supply rule, not that it would happen.

Maybe the solution is adding explicit supply to each scenario. I think that allows surrounded groups of units to maintain an ability to break out. In a recent Brevity alt scenario the CW player was able to easily isolate retreating Axis formations consisting of hundreds of motorized infantry with a few AC sitting atop the coastal escarpment. The Axis infantry was retreating from Halfaya Pass to Sollum up the coast. The map has a spot where the escarpment comes to only one hex from the coast (51,28). This is easily reached on the first turn by two units each with three AC in them on the first CW turn before the Axis can react. I doubt a few AC cars could depress their MG enough to stop columns of motorized infantry down on the coast with a 1,000 meters of maneuver space in the hex. The Axis infantry on the coast could not even shoot back at the AC. I suppose that is correct, since I can not think of an infantry weapon system that would allow the infantry attack up the escarpment against the AC hull down on the top. I considered allowing some of the Axis infantry go on foot and assault up the escarpment to knock the AC off the hex and allow the rest to retreat. When did that ever happen historically?

That was with the fluid ZOC rules. This change would allow the CW player to easily block supply and retreat from Hellfire Pass with any unit that has at least one AC. Then the CW infantry can go on foot and repel down the steep escarpment to finish off the Axis troops who sit there with their mouths open and their hands up! :hissy:

I guess this just points out how difficult it is to get a desert game to work with a turn based system. Only a WEGO system can really capture the desert campaigns.

Dog Soldier

[Mr Grumpy]

I guess this just points out how difficult it is to get a desert game to work with a turn based system. Only a WEGO system can really capture the desert campaigns.

Dog Soldier

You hit the nail on the head i think, the best we can hope for is to make these titles play as well as we can within the limits of the engine, i personally think we have improved on the stock scenarios, but not everybody may agree with that. :chin: