tanks

[Weasel]

I have been playing around with CMBO and CMBB and so far it seems to me that the name and type of tank is strictly for lip stick purposes. What I mean is no matter what the tank, a round that hits will kill it. I have seen this with PzIVs, Stugs, T34s, Shermans (real shocker there) but it just seems that the actual armour thickness and slope is not modeled.

Am I correct, or have my experimental games just been flukey?

One thing I did notice that I liked was the German tanks fired faster then the Russian tanks, which is as it should be. Is this modeled or am I once again just stumbling upon this?

[McIvan]

Armour slope & thickness is definitely modelled.....as is the relative angle of the tank to the firer (ie sideways deflection) and even whether the target is pitched up or down!

In consequence, you can get, for example, an ISU122S to poke its nose up over the top of a rise and make its 90mm 30 degree armour effectively 50 or 60 degrees, to the point where its almost impenetrable. From the front anyways.

Panther upper hull front is practically impenetrable by anything at all....but the game does take into account the production flaws in the armour that affected the Panther, so you can sometimes get through.

The Germans firing faster relates to size of gun and number of men in the turret. So a German 75mm in a Panther will fire faster than a Russian 85mm in a T34/85. Early T34/76s suffer in fire rate because they have two man turrets.

It's all in there! CMBB has a better armour model than CMBO, btw, becuase in CMBO practically every penetration is a knockout. Not so in CMBB, where size of penetrating shot and size of the target itself are both taken into account, including whether the historical AP round had a HE bursting charge and what size that charge was.

[Mad Russian]

Rate of fire is also affected by the experience level. Something the German tankers almost always have more of than their Soviet counterparts.

Good Hunting.

MR

[McIvan]

Generally speaking, the tanks you mentioned have guns that overmatch the armour of the targets....although Shermans with the normal 75mm will often bounce rounds off Stugs with 80mm curved fronts and T34/76s pretty much won't get through 80mm stug fronts at all and have trouble with 80mm PzIV hull fronts, but not the 50mm turrets.

Shermans actually ended up with some decent armour. Unfortunately the common German tank guns were powerful enough to routinely defeat it.

[Mike Abberton]

Weasel,

You'll also find that vulnerability depends a lot on the time frame of the battle. Shermans may by tough in 1942-3 in North Africa (CMAK), but they are pretty much swiss cheese going up against anything with a long 75mm gun, unless you pay extra for Jumbos.

There are a few months where StuGs are almost invincible (from the front), but once the Soviet T-34/85 shows up they can be handled. And they are always vulnerable from the rear/side.

Get some Tigers or KTs on the field, and it's actually easier to kill them with infantry than tanks. I had a enemy KT take two Russian 122mm AP rounds from about 100-200 meters (in the front/side) and the tank commander just calmly killed my two IS-2s and kept moving on. Cheeky bastard didn't even button up. :eek1:

Mike

[Colonel Talvela]

load up a cmbb '41 game with the russians having KVs, and you wont think that any round will kill a tank. Those things are beasts.

[Weasel]

Ok, will keep playing around. Trying to figure out the game without reading the manual because I hate instructions. My T34s were on a hill much above the lone stug, yet the bugger knocked all 4 out no problem. That really made me scratch my head for sure as they were not "tracks up" but hull down. All turret hits, one shot one kill. I had flash backs of SP H2H 7.1 for a second!

Thanks for the responses.

Is tank rate of fire slower if buttoned up even if target spotted and engaged?

[McIvan]

No, buttoning affects target acquisition, not rate of fire. With one and two man turrets, the tank in fact has to button to fire.

A buttoned tank is slow to pick up targets which can be, and often is, fatal in a tank v tank shootout. It does help if there are friendly infantry or other units close by that can "help" in spotting. If it is all on its lonesome, a buttoned tank can be pretty blind.

[Colonel Talvela]

standing up t34/76s against stugs in '43 will be a loss for the t34s everytime. But one of the best things about CM compared to hex based systems in my opinion is the movement model, and the t34 demonstrates that better than any other tank with a real gun IMO. On the move, T34s can turn really quickly, so you should be able to flank a stug and kill it - except a good player will put it in a keyhole spot and protect its flanks with AT guns and shreks - but I digress.

concerning rate of fire - I am pretty sure buttoning does not make a difference. As mentioned above, the big difference is size of the shell. Here is a ROF table for different axis tanks

(Tank/gun size&length/shots fired per minute)
PzKw H-39 735(f) Hotchkiss 37f/L33 7
PzKw R-35 731(f) Renault 37f/L21 7
PzKw 35-S 739(f) Somua 47f/L34 5
Panzer IB 12
Panzer IIC 20/L55 12
Panzer IIF 20/L55 11
Panzer IIJ 20/L55 11
Panzer IIL Lynx 20/L55 14
Flammpanzer II (30m) 9
Panzer 35(t) 37t/L40 10
Panzer 38(t)A 37t/L48 10
Panzer 38(t)E 37t/L48 10
Panzer 38(t)G 37t/L48 10
Panzer IIIF 37/L47 10
Panzer IIIG 50/L42 9
Panzer IIIH 50/L42 8
Panzer IIIJ short 50/L42 9
Panzer IIIJ short late 50/L42 9
Panzer IIIJ 50/L60 9
Panzer IIIJ late 50/L60 9
Panzer IIIL 50/L60 9
Panzer IIIM 50/L60 9
Panzer IIIM late skirt 50/L60 10
Panzer IIIN 75/L24 7
Panzer IIIN late skirt 75/L24 6
Flammpanzer III (60m) 9
Panzer IVC 75/L24 7
Panzer IVD 75/L24 7
Panzer IVE 75/L24 6
Panzer IVF 75/L24 7
Panzer IVF2 75/L43 6
Panzer IVG early 75/L43 6
Panzer IVG 75/L43 6
Panzer IVG late skirt 75/L48 7
Panzer IVH skirt 75/L48 6
Panzer IVJ skirt 75/L48 6
Ostwind (AA) {PzIV} 37/L57 13
Wirbelwind (AA) {PzIV} 20/L55 14
German (Axis) Gun ROF
(Reg)
Panther D skirt trap 75/L70 6
Panther D late skirt trap 75/L70 6
Panther A early skirt trap 75/L70 6
Panther A skirt trap 75/L70 7
Panther G trap 75/L70 6
Panther G late 75/L70 7
Tiger E early 88/L56 5
Tiger E 88/L56 5
Tiger E late 88/L56 5
King Tiger (Henschel) 88/L71 6
234/2 Armored Car Puma 50/L60 9
234/3 Heavy Armored Car 75/L24 7
234/4 Heavy Armored Car 75/L46 7
T-34/76B M1941 747® 76r/L42 5
T-34/76C M1942 747® 76r/L42 5
T-34/76D M1943 late 747® 76r/L42 5
T-34/85 M1944 late 747® 85r/L55 5
Tank Destroyers
PzJaeger I {PzI} 47t/L43 7
Marder II early TD {PzII} 76r/L51 7
Marder II TD {PzII} 75/L46 5
Marder III early TD {38t} 76r/L51 7
Marder III TD {38t} 75/L46 7
Marder III late TD {38t} 75/L46 7
Hetzer 38(t) skirt 75/L48 5
JagdPanzer IV early {PzIV} 75/L48 7
JagdPanzer IV skirt {PzIV} 75/L48 7
Panzer IV/70(A) skirt 75/L70 7
Panzer IV/70(V) skirt 75/L70 7
Nashorn TD {PzIV} 88/L71 6
JagdPanther early TH 88/L71 5
JagdPanther late TH 88/L71 5
JagdTiger 128/L55 3
PzKw M15/42 738(i) 47t/L43 9
Ferdinand {Tiger (P)} 88/L71 5
Elefant {Tiger (P)} 88/L71 5
SU-85® 85r/L55 6
German (Axis) Gun ROF
(Reg)
Assault Guns
sIG33 IB Bison {PzI} 150/L11 2
Wespe Arty {PzII} 105/L28 4
sIG33 Grille {38t} 150/L12 3
sIG33/1 Grille {38t} 150/L12 2
StuG IIIB {PzIII} 75/L24 6
StuG IIIE {PzIII} 75/L24 7
StuG IIIF {PzIII} 75/L43 7
StuG IIIF late {PzIII} 75/L43 6
StuG IIIF/8 {PzIII} 75/L48 7
StuG IIIG early {PzIII} 75/L48 6
StuG IIIG early-mid {PzIII} 75/L48 7
StuG IIIG mid skirt {PzIII} 75/L48 7
StuG IIIG late-mid skirt {PzIII} 75/L48 7
StuG IIIG late skirt {PzIII} 75/L48 7
StuG IV skirt {PzIV} 75/L48 7
StuG IV late skirt {PzIV} 75/L48 6
StuH42 early {PzIII} 105/L28 4
StuH42 mid skirt {PzIII} 105/L28 4
StuH42 late skirt {PzIII} 105/L28 4
Sturm IG33B {PzIII} 150/L11 3
Brummbar early {PzIV} 150/L12 2
Brummbar mid skirt {PzIV} 150/L12 2
Brummbar late skirt {PzIV} 150/L12 3
Hummel Arty {PzIV} 150/L30 2
Sturmmorser {Tiger} 380/L5 0.46

[Chipmunk]

Regarding rate of fire, does having your commander get capped effect ROF? I wouldn't expect it to in a three man turret because the commander is not functioning as loader or gunner. What about in a two man turret though?