DF 85 - The Elbe Estuary

[Elxaime]

This is the sort of meaningful trivia perhaps only wargamers can appreciate, but it seems relevant to the Danube 85 campaign.

On the map north of Hamburg runs the Elbe estuary leading to the North Sea. In the Modern Campaigns system bridge engineers can lay full hex bridges. Along the Elbe are at least nine spots (not counting the island west of Elmshorn) where a Warsaw Pact force advancing north towards Denmark might conceivably pivot at least some of its force west, lay a bridge across the Elbe north of Hamburg where it narrows to one hex, and then once the bridge is laid march into largely undefended West German territory. Granted, NATO can send some units to watch these hexes, but that is a further dispersal of already limited NATO forces. A helo can do it, but again, NATO helos are in short supply and desperately needed elsewhere.

Is it intended by the designers that the Elbe Estuary be bridgeable in this way? I am not sure such a devious strategy has occurred yet to Warsaw Pact players, but it seems to me it is only a matter of time and I thought it best to breach the issue now.

To my mind, the Elbe Estuary north of Hamburg, as a game balance issue, might need to be made impassable hexes. It would be best, of course, if we had some rationale for it besides that. I am thinking two such rationales may present themselves:

1. Tidal surge in the Elbe Estuary preventing military bridge laying?
2. NATO naval and naval air intervention?

As an alternative to making these hexes impassable, a designer might want to simply create some "alarm" type units, neglible combat strength security, police or marine infantry units that can be placed at the potential crossing points so that NATO at least gets some warning.

Thoughts?

[tbridges]

On the other hand...its also possible for the 6th PZ Gdr Div to retreate to the Elbe north of Hamburg, bridge the river there and live to fight another day.

[Glenn Saunders]

Thoughts?

For the Danube '85 master Campaign we set out to address any errors\omissions in the NGP Sector, but we focused our effort in the south. We haven't seen anyone try to Bridge the Elbe Estuary in NGP, but I suppose it is possible so, sure, I will mark those hexes as impassible to stop this should anyone try it.

Glenn

[FLG]

Now I don't know about you other guys but my knowledge of the geography of northern Germany is not what it could be. So when I reviewed the map with an eye to the area around Jutland I noted the Elbe north of Hamburg was generally two hexes wide except at certain points. I also noted that the banks of the river at these points would allow the passage of vehicles. I naturally assumed the designers had set up these conditions because they thought the river was crossable at these locations.

As it is I gave the orders to my engineers to form the pontoon last night and have two armored divisions lagered and ready to roll into the 4th NL division's left flank. Now I am going to have to bring them all the way back again. :rolleyes:

I am glad you mention it now though, otherwise I would have ended up making a gamey maneuver which would have ended up in my AAR. (No, it's not dead I have just been away for a while.)

Now, before we go on, and remembering my knowledge of German geography isn't what it could be, is there anything else you think you might need to tell me :)

[Elxaime]

Thoughts?

For the Danube '85 master Campaign we set out to address any errors\omissions in the NGP Sector, but we focused our effort in the south. We haven't seen anyone try to Bridge the Elbe Estuary in NGP, but I suppose it is possible so, sure, I will mark those hexes as impassible to stop this should anyone try it.

Glenn

Thanks Glen. I guess a question remains. Would the Elbe Estuary be made unbridgeable north of Hamburg for play balance reasons, for practical reasons (e.g. the nature of the water barrier at that point, current, etc.) or a combination of both?

For what its worth, on this map the Elbe above Hamburg looks MUCH wider than it does south of the city.

http://encarta.msn.com/map_701512280/elbe.html

Could it be that this is simply because the game designer, in superimposing a hex grid on the map, fudged the river width from two to one hex at certain points?

[Glenn Saunders]

[quote=Glenn Saunders]
[quote=Elxaime]
Thanks Glen. I guess a question remains. Would the Elbe Estuary be made unbridgeable north of Hamburg for play balance reasons, for practical reasons (e.g. the nature of the water barrier at that point, current, etc.) or a combination of both?

For what its worth, on this map the Elbe above Hamburg looks MUCH wider than it does south of the city.

http://encarta.msn.com/map_701512280/elbe.html

Could it be that this is simply because the game designer, in superimposing a hex grid on the map, fudged the river width from two to one hex at certain points?

Well - I thought you were telling me that it was not bridgable so I made it so.

If it is Bridgeable then I can undo the changes.

I've never seen anyone bridge it so I don't see how anyone would think it is a playable issue. I don't mind either way guys - let me know how you think it should be and I'll make it so!

Glenn

[tbridges]

I bridge the Elbe northwest of Hamburg in every game of DF'85 I play. If I'm playing NATO, I evacuate the 6thPZ GDE Div that way, and if I'm playing the WP I do it to outflank the NATO defense and get an open road to capture Bremerhaven.

I would like to see it remain as is.

[Aaron]

I guess the question is how wide is the Elbe north of Hamburg. I didnt do any accurate measures but just looking at the map it doesnt look bridgeable without alot of pontoons and time. And as was mentioned above being on the North Sea what are the tidal surges. Just looking at the map i dont c any crossing point that woundnt take alot of eng with pontoons to get across. And with pontoon laying taking 6 hours? in the .pdt i dont think it should be bridgeable in that short of time.

Aaron

[JonS1]

There are still no (civilian) bridges below Hamburg.

http://www.baw.de/vip/en/departments/dep...ro-en.html

[Aaron]

The 55 mile stretch of the Elbe river North of hamburg ranges from 1-2 miles in width. I dont believe u can build a 1 mile long pontoon let alone in 6 hours, and then u have to put up with the tidal surges coming from both the North Sea and up river surges.

Aaron