What's fair

[Herr Straße Laufer]

FYI you guy's might be interested to know that when JT moved onto PzC he introduced a feature called "protected hex's" which means you have a ring of hex's perhaps three deep around a reinforcement entry point and if a opponents unit try's to enter this zone it becomes broken and looses its zoc.

So this is not a viable tactic in PzC.

How could I guess that a thread about "fair" would bring in a "foul"!
A lot of players have differing "house rules". I guess they could establish that in advance?
I don't do that as a stunt, so I never needed it as a rule. :smoke:

[Mr Grumpy]

LMAO :bow:

[XLVIII Pz. Korp]

On the flip side, just for laughs. I remember exploiting out of a bridgehead during a huge scenario. Recon had preceeded me and found nothing so I was calmly motoring along an assumed friendly mapedge with two complete battalions of infantry and their support all in loaded trucks. :smoke:

Gee... I didn't know it was one of my opponents reinforcement edges and half a panzer division was scheduled to show up next turn. :eek1:

Funniest thing you ever saw. Gerry's tanks rolled in two hexes, bumped into my columns and the hysterics began. Not a single one of my units out of their trucks to defend themselves. A real "Ride of the Valkyries" as armored cars and tanks just rolled up and down the columns overrunning everything and shooting up what they couldn't reach. Hell I've had entire games where I've lost less units than what I lost in that one turn. When the laughter (yes I do mean laughter not slaughter) ended I had two battalions that had never fired a shot shattered, and my opponent must've upped his score by about 600 VPs. (You out there smiling Thomas?)

Guess my opponent knew I hadn't played the scenario before.

Come to think of it if we'd been playing 1.03 he never would've got past the first overrun. :stir:

[K K Rossokolski]

Come to think of it if we'd been playing 1.03 he never would've got past the first overrun. :stir:

Aaah, but if it had been near the coast, you might have been beset by the Bathtub Navy's non-submarine submarine launched anti-truck/tank/aeroplane/you name it torpedo
:stir: :soap:

[John Given]

One other thing I thought I should mention is that this "entry hex camping" practice also has an evil twin. :chin:

It's called stacking of exit hexes and it is used to prevent an opponent from exiting his units that have reached their exit hex. This is probably the only "house" rule I stand by that not all that many players know about;

a. It's ok to build up the area around an exit hex - fortify it, cover it with lots of units waiting to op-fire. Even stack the hexes leading up to the exit hex. ;)

b. But you have to leave the exit hex itself empty. One of the big reasons why is that it's possible in some scenarios for the hex to get more than 6 wrecks in it, which can negate the road (i.e a 6 sp truck can't enter a road-marsh hex that has 7 wrecks in it). IF the exit hex is rough, possibly heavy jungle, marsh, swamp, or has certain terrain hex-sides, this will make the hex unreachable for the enemy, which is not fair. :mad:

c. Also, it's not allowable to put units like halftracks (here we go again :stir: ) into the exit hex and then dare the enemy to try and remove them - if the enemy leaves the units alone, the road is blocked. If he shoots them up and creates a lot of wrecks, the road is still blocked (if in tough terrain, to some units). Unsportmanslike and very unrealistic. I've yet to have anyone pull something like this on me in the CS, but back in my old panzer leader days it happened often enough that we made a house rule against it.

Fortunately, there is a "wreck removal" rule that will allow for the removal of said wrecks in 1.03 matrix version of the CS, but my own house rule against occupying of exit hexes still stands.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

It's called stacking of exit hexes and it is used to prevent an opponent from exiting his units that have reached their exit hex. This is probably the only "house" rule I stand by that not all that many players know about;

First off let me clearly stat that there is nothing wrong with defending an exit hex by placing units on the hex. Nothing. Its not illegal, its not gamey and many stock scenarios have defenses on exit hexes.

I may also point out that in most scenarios with an exit hex it is a bad tactic. Usually the exit hexes are so far behind the lines that unless the sceanrio is very long the enemy cannot get to the exit hex. Very few scenarios need you to exit units to get a victory.

a. It's ok to build up the area around an exit hex - fortify it, cover it with lots of units waiting to op-fire. Even stack the hexes leading up to the exit hex. ;)

So you are ok with some one stacking halftracks, trucks, and the like all around the exit hex, but not combat units on the exit?

What if the best defensive terrain is the exit hex? Your telling someone they cannot use it? Sorry no.

b. But you have to leave the exit hex itself empty. One of the big reasons why is that it's possible in some scenarios for the hex to get more than 6 wrecks in it, which can negate the road (i.e a 6 sp truck can't enter a road-marsh hex that has 7 wrecks in it). IF the exit hex is rough, possibly heavy jungle, marsh, swamp, or has certain terrain hex-sides, this will make the hex unreachable for the enemy, which is not fair. :mad:

Don't shoot the crap out of armor on bridges or on roads in impassable terrain. Also your infantry can still use the hex. You must be very careful about what you destroy on roads going through difficult terrain.

Also it is perfectly fair to station tanks and the like on such hexes.

c. Also, it's not allowable to put units like halftracks (here we go again :stir: ) into the exit hex and then dare the enemy to try and remove them - if the enemy leaves the units alone, the road is blocked. If he shoots them up and creates a lot of wrecks, the road is still blocked (if in tough terrain, to some units). Unsportmanslike and very unrealistic. I've yet to have anyone pull something like this on me in the CS, but back in my old panzer leader days it happened often enough that we made a house rule against it.

No it is not unsportsman like an unrealistic. It's good play. If you as the attacker create that wrecks then bad on you.

Fortunately, there is a "wreck removal" rule that will allow for the removal of said wrecks in 1.03 matrix version of the CS, but my own house rule against occupying of exit hexes still stands.

Keep in mind it is YOUR house rule and nothing more. If your opponent agrees to it (which he should not IMHO) then great for you.

It will not be something that should ever become offical or sanctioned for the ladder as a whole.

You are entitled to your opinion though.

Thanx!

[Huib Versloot]

A designer can very easily place several exit hexes to avoid any defensive stacking. I've never had any complaints about dubious defensive tactics on exit hexes though. It is quite gamey to create wrecks on them and not at all "good play" IMO.
On a real battlefield units would just pass by the wrecks once they got there. But like I said I have never seen strange behaviour of players near exit hexes.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

A designer can very easily place several exit hexes to avoid any defensive stacking.

A well designed scenario would have multiple exit hexes which would limit defensive stacking.

I've never had any complaints about dubious defensive tactics on exit hexes though.

Neither have I.

It is quite gamey to create wrecks on them and not at all "good play" IMO.

Well what do you mean by this? If I place armor in an exit hex and you destroy them creating 6+ wrecks, then what did I do that was gamey?

Now if one placed halftracks in the exit hex and shelled them with my own artillery then yes, sure not good.

On a real battlefield units would just pass by the wrecks once they got there.

Hence the multiple exit hexes.

But like I said I have never seen strange behaviour of players near exit hexes.

Neither have I. Very few of my battles every involve the exit hexes anyways.

Thanx!

[Huib Versloot]

Yes I think in theory putting armor on an exit hex is gamey when the enemy is about to reach it in force. I do find the original question a bit too hypothetical to bother much though. When the fighting get's to this stage, the outcome is ussually already determined.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Yes I think in theory putting armor on an exit hex is gamey when the enemy is about to reach it in force.

What would you propose that the person do? Surely a fighting withdrawl is acceptable. And if you are out of space, surely defending the exit hex is ok?

I do find the original question a bit too hypothetical to bother much though. When the fighting get's to this stage, the outcome is ussually already determined.

100% true!

Thanx!