Using and Killing 88's

[Pip Roberts]

These great weapons can wipe out loaded trucks, tanks and exposed HQ's at long ranges using Opfire or direct fire.
Here are some tips from my experience to stimulate comments

ALLIES. Once they are spotted you must look at the visibilty of every hex you plan to move through and try to sneak past using Wadis or Forests
You will have to take them out by Air Attack (unreliable) or sacrificing some light fast tanks as the guns only get 2 shots /turn

AXIS. Place for maximum visibility and decide whether you want to use Opfire or not - turn by turn. When the enemy tanks get close decide whether to fight it out to the last or flee to another spot with good visibility

I have assembled 7 files (with comments) for those who wish to practice.
of these are in Matrix JTCS the other in my personal collection of TS scenarios.

[umbro]

This reminds me of a tactical puzzle I was putting together a while back.

There is a 4SP 88 in a bunker (the soft variety - not a pillbox) on a slight rise with full view in all directions. Visibility is 20. You can have any three platoons of 2 tanks each. What tanks do you take and what do you think your chances of success are?

umbro

P.S. I created this for TS style options/rules

[Huib Versloot]

This reminds me of a tactical puzzle I was putting together a while back.

There is a 4SP 88 in a bunker on a slight rise with full view in all directions. Visibility is 20. You can have any three platoons of 2 tanks each. What tanks do you take and what do you think your chances of success are?

umbro

If the gun is in a wooden bunker, I'd take Churchill VIIIs, or faster Cromwells with infantry guns (to close the 20 hex gap faster). If it's in a concrete bunker, I'd take Fireflies. Those guns will be dead in one or two turns in any case. IMO you cannot rely on OP fire with any of the AT guns. Fire once, load up and relocate...

Edit: Ofcourse I had to try it. Here are the results, hotseat game only shooting, no assaults, no smoke:

3x 2sp Cromwells CS against wooden bunker with 4 sp 88: Cromwells all lost in 4 turns for no loss of 88s
3 x 2sp Churchills VIII against wooden bunker with 4 sp 88: Churchills kill last 88 after 7 turns for the loss of 2 tanks
3x 2spSherman 105 against wooden bunker with 4 sp 88: Shermans are destroyed after 7 turns for the loss of 1 88

Lastly 3 x 2sp Fireflies against a concrete pillbox with 4 sp 88: 88's destroy last Firefly after 20 (!) turns for the loss of 3 guns.

I guess I underestimated the power of the 88 :bow:

[umbro]

If the gun is in a wooden bunker, I'd take Churchill VIIIs, or faster Cromwells with infantry guns (to close the 20 hex gap faster). If it's in a concrete bunker, I'd take Fireflies. Those guns will be dead in one or two turns in any case. IMO you cannot rely on OP fire with any of the AT guns. Fire once, load up and relocate...

Huib - Your Churchill VIIIs best strategy is to close to max range and then advance one hex per turn and firing twice. With such a strategy you will take out the 88s just over 50% of the time.
[Note: at max range the Churchills fire at 6@6:13 (6SP attack at 6 (8*75% for the bunker) vs defence of 3+10=13) that produces an expected loss of .23 per turn. The 88s fire at 4@21:14 (4SPs attack at 19*110% due to the height advantage vs defence of 14) that produces an expected loss of .4

Even though the loss rate is higher for the tankers they have the advantage that they have to be disrupted three times rather than once for the 88s. If the 88s are four separate units the odds drop dramatically for the tanks.

umbro

P.S. There is a tank that will always win against the 88s...

[K K Rossokolski]

If you can, when positioning 88s in the game, dig them in.

[Filthy-Missile]

I would think Jumbos would be good. Against wooden bunkers at least. Infantry type main gun and pretty good armor.

I didn't play it though,

Dan

[umbro]

I would think Jumbos would be good. Against wooden bunkers at least. Infantry type main gun and pretty good armor.

Jumbos have better armour than the Churchill but their gun is not as good against bunkers. The are, however, faster. Their best strategy is to close as fast as possible and overrun the bunker. It takes them four turns to do this and the 88 will only stop them about 40% of the time. A little better than the Churchill VIIIs, but only slightly.

umbro

[Jason Petho]

How about a platoon British CS tanks and a couple of Sextons?

Smoke provider and self propelled artillery?

Jason Petho

[Huib Versloot]

At 20 hex visibility Sextons can stay out of range and WILL kill the 88's

If I had tried assaulting, it migh have also worked with the Cromwells, but who wants to take the gamble that there is not a hidden infantry platoon in the bunker.

[umbro]

The sexton idea is a nice one (though I am not sure that they count as tanks) but there is a problem.

At max visibility the Sextons attack at 6@12(*.9):13
The PaK 43 88s fire at 4@13(*1.1):3 and will quickly dispatch the Sextons

In Jasons scenario the CS tank will smoke the sextons after they have fired reducing the 88s to 4@13(*.5*1.1):3, better, but still not enough to take out the bad guys...

umbro

P.S. A clue to my solution lies in every post I make...