Question for Glenn re Moscow 41

[Gordons HQ]

Hi Glenn,
At present my opponent and I are playing Moscow 41 #1115 The Main Event, Operation Typhoon. The question is to do with the victory conditions and in particular the Russian chance of any victory.
We are wondering if it is design in the way it is or it is some oversight.
The problem is the game begins with a draw and there are only Russain objectives on the map for the Axis to capture, there are no objectives the Russain player can capture.
It would therefore seem the only way the Russain player can improve from the draw is to wipe out the Axis army and there appears to be little chance of this. I say this because I understand from the description of this scenario that the game will finish before the main Russian reinforcements come into play.
Although I am not over concerned personally re the victory levels and are enjoying the game for the sake of it. I'm sure someone else playing the Russian side would expect more of a chance of victory than a draw in view of the nature of this titanic struggle. That is if in fact the Axis were stopped before Moscow.
I suspect this is an oversight which hopefully can be corrected in the future.

Regards,
Gordon

[Glenn Saunders]

Gordon:

I'd really like to be able to give you a reasoned answer for why things are the way they are but unfortunately this game was produced so long ago, I can't recall.

Also - Moscow was a different production in that what I did was take two part from two people who worked independently - and fit them together making the OOBs, the component names ect all match. The CG itself was built by Greg Smith but I suspect I had something to do with the Vic Levels and I would normally not start a CG with DRAW Vic conditions as I would want to burden of attack on the attacker - to force them to not sit in place.

That is the normal thinking. However I may have been thinking that the german drive for Moscow was a goal set by Hitler that didn't really have a Military value. (now some will or could argue this point) but by starting the game with a Draw situation, give the German that option to do the Militarily smart thing ... perhaps.

The fact that the Russian Counter Offense was included was because:
1) Game length
2) added units and unit arrival research wouldhave had to be done (and this was not my direct research for this CG.
3) And it would have setup the need or the desire for a third CG featuring the Germans at their peak and teh Soviet counterattack ...and again, I just didn't have the info in front of me to make this happen. Besides, there are loads of people out their who like to make Mods of our games but not as many who like to make their own "from scratch" type campaigns so this is an oppurunity to give people who like the editors something challeniging to work with too.

Sorry I can't be more helpful - but the more I think of it the more I *think* I was giving the Germans a chance to stand pat and make the russians attempt victory BEFORE the big counter offensive - which they didn't expect.

Hope this helsp a bit anyway.

Glenn

[FLG]

It would therefore seem the only way the Russain player can improve from the draw is to wipe out the Axis army and there appears to be little chance of this. I say this because I understand from the description of this scenario that the game will finish before the main Russian reinforcements come into play.

I have played this and the Russians have more than a fair shot. Making any heading against a determined competent defense is very hard. The Russian ,through good play, can easily achieve a minor victory and if the axis player doesn't take care and wears out his troops the Russian can counter attack and put the Axis troops to flight.

I would recommend that the stronger player takes Russia but I think the victory conditions are fine.

[Gordons HQ]

Hi Glenn,
Thanks it makes some sense I suppose.
I assume you mean the Russian Counter Attack is Not included in this scenario, as it does not appear to be by the scenario description.
We are only in the early stages of the campaign so I don't know how this will play out.
But it seems pretty obvious the Russians are not in a position to attack, therefore I will assume that the only outcome can be a draw, probably more realistic will be some kind of loss.
Given the historical outcome of this battle that would seem a little off the mark to me.
As I say I'm not too bothered about this, but it really doesn't give the Russian player much incentive to play this particular scenario.
I will see how it plays out and if as I suspect there is nothing to play for as a the Russian player I will have a go at editing this to see if I can come up with a better solution.

Cheers, Gordon

[Gordons HQ]

I've just seen the post by FLG, as I say I'll see have this turns out.
I can only assume then that it's possible to wear down the Axis and counter attack gaining enough VP's by eliminating the Axis. This of course without the need to take any objective points as there are none to take as a Russian.

Cheers Gordon