To Counter Battery or not to Counter Battery...

[klanx171]

Personally I dont do CB fire very much as I have way to much else to shoot at but some people swear by it.

Also I have lernt from experience that if your arty is on board then it has to be mobile or it will die.

So at risk of exposing my "secrets" I will explain what I do and why I dont bother doing CB unless its a totally obvious target.

If I cant get mobile arty I get trucks, lots of them and pack the guns into them, also If I can have ammo dumps I will take mobile over not but if its worth it I will get a bigger dump and ferry the guns to it before ferrying them back to their firing positions.

This takes organization so I work on the principle of on/off. One battery or group is firing while another is in transit, and if I have a third then it may also be firing or setting up. This often means shifting targets, or switching who is firing on what but it often pays off as I have watched my opps blasting away at where my guns were.

The only exception to this situation is when the fire is needed and cant be stopped so I will take a risk and keep the gun where it is, sometimes they get popped but sometimes they dont, its a risk worth taking.

I tend to put my guns in hollows, dead ground or in rough or rocky terrain if I can as they provide some protection, trees also but not as much, arty in tress is protected by planes but harder to move around, also I try to stay near roads and keep my gear spaced out in one or a series of battery related arty parks so i know who has what and how much, this keeps things well set and means I dont have all my eggs in one basket.

The main thing I look for in a gun, ammo count, I want duration much more than hitting power although i like hitting power as well. Next is caliber but bigger calibers dont have as much ammo as other and can take to long to load so I aim for the 100 to 120 mm and 40 to 50 rounds of ammo, this means I can reload faster and spread my ammo trucks around more as the time to reload is a bit bigger than guns with lower ammo counts.

The principle behind this, SUPPRESSION not destruction, I want to suppress units, button tanks, as most of the time arty will not destroy but will make it harder to see the thing that will destroy you coming at you.

Except in totally close combat I keep units spaced out as I often forget that the enemy has arty until he starts dropping rounds right on my head so I keep spaced as it prevents the all important clusterf**k that can occur when bunched up.

I dont like to have my units stay close on the assault to the assaulting units, I will keep a distance until they are through and use the arty to support them, to many time i have had an Opp drop rounds right behind the main attack to trust that they will not.

But the reason I dont do CB fire so much is often my opps are doing the same as me and so I know that its not worth the effort and so I concentrate my fire on the fighting.

also if its off board arty my Opp has then I dont always have the bigger calibre arty to do the off board CB fire so I just keep plugging away.

I do manage my ammo by switching of tubes as need be and by keeping lots of ammo trucks about to refill guns, when it works well I will have one ammo truck, dump, box per gun or at worst one per two. If I can I double up ammo supplies per gun so they get reloaded faster (even more important now as the days of one ammo trucks doing all at a time are gone) and then onto the next one.

Another trick I have found is parking my arty right on the edge of the map, I mean the very edge hex, enemy fire often misses as it goes of the map or drops short and if you have rough terrain its even worth digging the guns in as they are almost impossible to hit by planes who dont like the edge of the map very much, so all is needed is a screen of AA to deter choppers or some planes and you can fire away in comparative safety.

If I do have to move I will move fast but only a short hop, either in a clockwise or counter clockwise way so the ammo stays central but the guns (and the smoke they make) moves around, watching the enemy chase smoke is very satisfying

All this on/off, moving around, lots of ammo and edge of map stuff means I can concentrate on the battle and usually dont worry about CB shoots.

The only time when CB is important is when I know the enemy arty has to be stopped or Im a gonner and in mots battles I try to stay down and keep moving my forces with where the arty is well in mind so its only when I am stuck do I think about CB.

If arty starts to land near my main advance i jink left or right by 5 or 6 hexes and most of the time my advance is not in a direct line of attack as its just setting up for a blasting and to many SP players are very good at bringing arty to bear but less are good at adjusting it or plotting ahead.

The hardest person I have every faced at dropping arty on me is Jadpanther who often has had an almost telepathic knowledge of where I was was going to be, often I think he knew what I had and knew the terrain so he could work out a very close guess based on direction, either way I learnt many of my skills from fighting him.

All in all CB is important but I like to use planes for that job more often and keep the arty for the fast moving targets while the planes can hit the slower arty as planes will adjust to whats in the area even if you dont see it on the map while arty will not so I need arty to be where I want it but planes will switch and move if the target has moved so they will often pick up enemy ammo and arty on the fly.

many Opps I have faced are very careful with their arty, they will wait to see what I have and where the attack is before showing their guns, I like to blast away for the first 5 rounds even if I dont know as I can often guess and estimate where stuff will be and if turn zero fire is allowed I will always do it because even if he isnt on the start line all lines up, or close by you can effectively block his main approach or avenues of movement by dropping some turn zero rounds and then making him work around them.

Also I have found that on the front line an Opp is very careful about force dispersal but since I got more into using scouts (or zeroed units) to get forward I have found that behind the lines many players are less careful and its much more tempting to hit their rear even if its not the main fight as it can cause major disruption.

Finally most CB do not hinge on CB fire while the main fight does, so I prefer to keep my fire there and make it count, I have won more than a few battles where my arty got chopped up but my guys were spared so while I keep some units around as a guard often my arty runs amok and has only AA guns and such as protection.

Also if I have units positioned from the start of the battle I do it always in trees or dead ground with lots of spacing, and will not move them even if being shelled as it seems once they break cover they are much easier to spot and more susceptible to damage or suppression so I dig them in well back and spaced out and never in a formation that allows a plane to come in and drop a line of bombs on them, thats happened too many times.

All of this leads me away from CB fire and towards fire on the main body of the fighting or its auxiliary areas and little if any on what arty he has.

Of course these are just my thoughts and there are other ways to do it.

What are yours?

[RERomine]

I'll throw in 2 cents.

The thing about counter battery is it can take guns off their primary mission: supporting the troops at the broken end of the bottle. As you pointed out yourself, lots of people like to keep their artillery moving so counter battery can be a waste of time. Sometimes, it's not. All you can do is watch to see if the enemy artillery seems to be moving. If it's not, it's worth taking trying. With on-board artillery, if you can manage to suppress or get larger guns moving by firing counter battery with smaller guns, all the better.

By constantly pressuring the enemy troops with yours will often keep counter battery to a minimum. It's not forced, but seems common. I've got a non-ladder game going and my mortars have been firing for a lot and moving during during brief lapses. The enemy's flank is giving in so rather than firing counter battery at my mortars, my opponent keeps fire on the front. Again, it's a matter of supporting the troops at the front against "sure" targets rather than possibly wasting it firing counter battery at mortars that might have moved. All of my mortars have moved, some by truck and some walking, but they have moved.

Some people start a battle moving artillery and then when they don't see counter battery coming in, they get "lazy" and stop. I've been guilty of that myself. Generally speaking, if I have something that has fired before, has a cloud hanging over it and isn't firing now, I should move it. If it's mission critical at the moment, I keep it where it's at.

Something similar to what you also mentioned, I have positioned my artillery in a large diamond formation with a supply point in the middle. When they need to resupply, they move to the supply point and do so. No firing allowed from an immobile source of supply.

One thing you mentioned that I don't do is keep my guns near the edge. This is assuming you don't plan on moving the guns. You mentioned some advantages, but one major disadvantage is if the crew happens to be retreating or routs, they are GONE. I had four 12-man crews run off the edge of the map before. Not one casualty, but the guns were just as worthless as they would have been had they been destroyed. With a little distance between the guns and the edge, you do risk getting hit more, but panicked crews can be rallied and returned to their guns, after the counter battery is done. While they are away from their guns, the guns might as well be protected by an electro-magnetic shield because unmanned guns can't be damaged.

This isn't as big a problem with SPAs. If artillery hits close enough to rout them, they will probably be immobilized or the gun knocked out. They usually don't rout unless they take damage. Being mobile, I've never had that problem with them running off the edge of the map, however because I keep them out of trouble.

With mortars and towed guns, I usually only buy enough transport to move half of them. The half with transports with them fire first. Once I'm ready to move, I load them, move as far as the transport will take them and then unload. If the other half has started firing, the transports move to them and prepare to repeat the process. Otherwise, I can just prepare to fire the ones that just moved again. You get the most distance from the original firing point if you are moving mortars. Small guns don't get moved as far as mortars, but farther than large guns. I only use large guns (150mm+) during battles where I don't feel I will need to move them. Doing it this way allows me to save a few purchase points by making more efficient use of my transports.

The bottom line is there is no hard, fast rule on whether or not to use counter battery fire or to use measures to protect against counter battery. It's a guessing game. You have to watch or know your opponents tendencies. If you've played them enough, you will know what they are likely to do. Changing your own tendencies might allow you to win the guessing game during a critical battle or a point in a battle. In the end, it's all a gamble.

[klanx171]

Most people I play move their arty a lot or have off board so I am conditioned to not trying CB, that I will admit.

If I do do CB its at a ratio of 1 in 5, so just enough to keep them thinking, Id love for a "lazy" Opp but i dont seem to get them.

[Narwan]

I guess I'm a bit of an odd one out here as I rarely use CB fire and it's even more rare for me to move my arty around.

The reason is very simple, it's not worth the effort/time/points in 99% of the cases. And I don't care about arty losses. Arty is 100% expendable in a game. They're just a support weapon. That's what they do, support the combat forces in whatever way is most appropriate. If that means taking losses, so be it. Even without any additional arty rules it takes about 3 to 5 times as much incoming CB tubes as are usually affected by it (destroyed, abandoned, seriously damaged or very heavily suppressed). All those tubes can't be supporting the actual combat while they're firing CB. Mine are, so odds are I'll win the battle that matters. By not bothering about making them mobile I'm also freeing up points to spend elsewhere. Like for more arty.

Narwan

[Weasel]

I CB if the enemy tubes are close together (hmm, optional rules 8f there) but if spread all over the map then I won't unless his arty is just kicking the crap out of me and mine seems to be useless. If that is the case then I will CB to try and get my boys a rest.

I normally move my onboard guns every 3 or 4 turns depending on the nations involved and FOO time delay (hmmm, FOO optional rule). I figure 1 turn for the smoke to show, next turn for him to plot, 2 turns for the counter to run down, and then impact.

[Fokkov]

I find towed guns very usefull to attract cb fire from my opponent once i a while.
Even when they got hit , the crews flee , but with the rally hex nearby after 2 or 3 turns you can have them back at there gun and in action again.
Most the time you have your opponent wasting a lot of his arty on these guns as they sems an easy target , which is better than on the poor grunts at the front.

[Cross]

When it comes to WW2, I’m a fan of on-board artillery, because this forces players to think strategically.
Battalions had to be concerned about holding some sort of line; and breakthroughs were always a major concern because they threatened supply and rear echelon units.
Having on-board artillery - to the rear - helps replicate these concerns. If you don’t have artillery to your rear, then why care about a front? Just circle your kampf-wagons and fight on.

These comments are regarding onboard CB.

I don’t like to fire CB missions, except on rare occasion I have no other worthwhile targets, I suspect my opponents using ammo trucks; or the suppression of his artillery is critical to my success (which is also rare).

As a front-line battalion commander, I’m overjoyed when the artillery I’m facing starts pounding my artillery to the rear. Let me tell you why:

If my opponent is firing CB, I figure it’s taken him 2+ turns to get sighted in.
Let’s say he pounds my arty for 4 turns and routs a couple of crews, then he decides to use his arty on the front line.

It’s going to take him another 2+ turns to plot his new front line shoot. That’s another 2+ turns that most of my arty has been pounding his infantry, and another 2+ turns my infantry don’t have to wear tin hats. So my infantry had a free ride for 8+ turns.

By the time his arty is shooting at the front, my crews have rallied and are back at their guns. What’s more my rallied crews now have more ammo than his, because - while they were routed - they weren’t wasting ammo firing at artillery targets which have little association with the objectives my un-harried infantry have just captured.

Like Narwan, I rarely move arty units. I need them shooting at the front.

I do like to attack rear artillery with breakthrough units. I think this can be worthwhile as small forces can cause much damage and confusion in the rear. Or perhaps I’m justifying a satisfying experience.

Never conserve ammo. Get as much fire power onto the front as soon as possible. If you do run low on ammo, it shouldn’t matter because the battle should already be going your way. The artillery have done their job.

[klanx171]

I have often wondered if we had artillery spacing rules like only one hex apart or so (which in most cases is realistic and kept the arty within a certain distance of roads, also realistic) how much would that change the game?

[klanx171]

Never conserve ammo. Get as much fire power onto the front as soon as possible. If you do run low on ammo, it shouldn’t matter because the battle should already be going your way. The artillery have done their job.

In the longer battles running out of ammo is a definite problem which is not the case for shorter (20 turn) battles and since i often play longer ones ammo management is a must.

Also sometimes the fire is more ranging fire than effect, just seeing where its going and so not worth expending extra ammo on.

I tend ot keep the tubes down to 2 out of 4 or sometimes even one out of 4 until I think I have something to hit, or I can see what I am shooting at then I turn them on to full.

The only exception to this is when I need to do suppression fire on a likely area of movement and want to make it as bad as possible, then I go all out.

[Cross]

Never conserve ammo. Get as much fire power onto the front as soon as possible. If you do run low on ammo, it shouldn’t matter because the battle should already be going your way. The artillery have done their job.

In the longer battles running out of ammo is a definite problem which is not the case for shorter (20 turn) battles and since i often play longer ones ammo management is a must.

Also sometimes the fire is more ranging fire than effect, just seeing where its going and so not worth expending extra ammo on.

I tend ot keep the tubes down to 2 out of 4 or sometimes even one out of 4 until I think I have something to hit, or I can see what I am shooting at then I turn them on to full.

The only exception to this is when I need to do suppression fire on a likely area of movement and want to make it as bad as possible, then I go all out.

Hi Klanx,

I think you make a good point about longer battles. I should say that my comment was more a 'rule of thumb' communicated in a deceptively emphatic manner.:soap:

I would still advise that, even in longer battles, your artillery take the first engagements the most seriously (as far as destruction of the enemy is concerned) and use all possible force early on. There may be an opportunity to conserve ammo in the middle game.

This doesn't mean wasting ammo on assembly point guesses. But as soon as you find targets, get those gunners loading and firing as if they're sitting on an ammo dump.

By winning the early firefights you gain the initiative. You could see it like an arm wrestle, put all your strength in right away or let your opponent get the upper hand.

There are, no doubt, exceptions to this, like when your plan fakes a retreat to draw your opponent into a kill zone. Or you spot a column of trucks heading into an ambush. What is it Rommel said? Something like: 'Don't interupt the enemy when he's busy making a mistake'.