Discussion number 1 on the Alt oob

[Volcano Man]

Just a follow up to this since it was brought up here, I don't think I will be changing the TD defense ratings -- they seem to be fine with the McN calculations.

I ran a few tests today and a 21 vehicle ISU-152 TD unit (one of the best TD units in the game, besides the Jagdtiger) assaulted an undisrupted infantry unit, unsupported, barely causes a loss of two men but at a loss of 1 or 2 of these massive TDs on avarage. Of course the situation varies greatly from case to case, depending on size of infantry unit, quality, attack and assault ratings etc, but the point was to make sure that these late war TDs were not "assault behemoths", which they aren't by any means. The verdict? Keep the TDs supported by other units and they are very powerful indeed. If they stray away by themselves to hold territory then you should assault them with infantry if possible.

[James Ward]

I really like the Alt scenarios but there is one thing that strikes me as wrong in them, though I don't know how to solve it.
In most Alt scenarios infantry have no hard attack range so it makes sense for you not to stack hard and soft targets together unless you need to assault with combined arms. You can basically park your armor next to infantry and blast away without receivng any return fire. Since the Alt scenarios also reduce most artillery hard attack values there isn't much you can do but take it if you have no tanks or AT around. It would be nice if infantry that had a hard attack value could give some sort of fire (maybe 1/2 or 1/4 of their value) at range to harass armor units that just roll up next to them and blast away. If TD defense is based on having accompanying infantry in some cases then at least they should be able to fire at them.

[Volcano Man]

It all depends on the infantry you are talking about, as well as the period in the war. In most cases you are supposed to rely on other tanks, tank destroyers, aircraft and anti-tank guns to counter enemy armor, not infantry. Heavy artillery can be used to an effect, but again it depends on too many variables to make such a broad statement. On the other hand, the later war infantry units that have no hard attack range mean that they either have to assault, or be assaulted by tanks to destroy them. It is all a matter of looking the numbers.

In a Prokhorovka test I have going on (1943), three Russian guards infantry battalions have been assaulting and pushing back SS PzKw IIIm tanks to good effect, but yes, if I just sat still in the open and let the tanks shoot me then I would not be about to counter. Anyway, these ranges are directly taken from McNamara's own numbers. The infantry units that have an "offensive" AT rating usually have a lower hard attack value than the ones that don't (to encourage close assault). Not that these numbers are the gospel, but they work well enough for me if you know the strengths and weaknesses of everything. Try backing up your infantry with some dug in AT guns is about all I can really say. You may find yourself in cases of extreme overmatch. In those cases, you or your opponent has to rush the counter to that overmatch to the area. Think rock, paper, scissors. ;)

As for the early war years, there isn't much of a choice. I think all infantry have 0 hard attack range since any AT capability they had was extremely limited. Then again, the early war tanks aren't that difficult to kill with air, artillery and anti-aircraft guns either.

If TD defense is based on having accompanying infantry in some cases then at least they should be able to fire at them.

Not necessarily. The McN numbers are calculated off of four values, defense, front armor, side armor and rear armor. The defensive effect that "tankos" provide is not a huge amount -- not so much that you can say that you should be able to target the tankos to kill a TD. That said, you are free to change the values to whatever you like of course.

[James Ward]

[quote=Volcano Man]
It all depends on the infantry you are talking about, as well as the period in the war. In most cases you are supposed to rely on other tanks, tank destroyers, aircraft and anti-tank guns to counter enemy armor, not infantry. Heavy artillery can be used to an effect, but again it depends on too many variables to make such a broad statement. On the other hand, the later war infantry units that have no hard attack range mean that they either have to assault, or be assaulted by tanks to destroy them. It is all a matter of looking the numbers.

In a Prokhorovka test I have going on (1943), three Russian guards infantry battalions have been assaulting and pushing back SS PzKw IIIm tanks to good effect, but yes, if I just sat still in the open and let the tanks shoot me then I would not be about to counter. Anyway, these ranges are directly taken from McNamara's own numbers. The infantry units that have an "offensive" AT rating usually have a lower hard attack value than the ones that don't (to encourage close assault). Not that these numbers are the gospel, but they work well enough for me if you know the strengths and weaknesses of everything. Try backing up your infantry with some dug in AT guns is about all I can really say. You may find yourself in cases of extreme overmatch. In those cases, you or your opponent has to rush the counter to that overmatch to the area. Think rock, paper, scissors. ;)

As for the early war years, there isn't much of a choice. I think all infantry have 0 hard attack range since any AT capability they had was extremely limited. Then again, the early war tanks aren't that difficult to kill with air, artillery and anti-aircraft guns either.[quote=Volcano Man]



Like I said I don't know any way of giving infantry any sort of harassing fire ability without really changing the way the games play. Given that units in different hexes can be anywhere for ~2km to a few meters apart it's hard to say that infantry would always or never have any weapons that could effect hard targets. The only thing I find odd is it is to your benefit to use ahistorical tactics of keeping hard and soft targets separated.

[Volcano Man]

I really like the Alt scenarios but there is one thing that strikes me as wrong in them, though I don't know how to solve it.
In most Alt scenarios infantry have no hard attack range so it makes sense for you not to stack hard and soft targets together unless you need to assault with combined arms. You can basically park your armor next to infantry and blast away without receiving any return fire. Since the Alt scenarios also reduce most artillery hard attack values there isn't much you can do but take it if you have no tanks or AT around. It would be nice if infantry that had a hard attack value could give some sort of fire (maybe 1/2 or 1/4 of their value) at range to harass armor units that just roll up next to them and blast away. If TD defense is based on having accompanying infantry in some cases then at least they should be able to fire at them.

One thing that is related to all of this is something I have been meaning to look at: tank soft attack ratings. About a month ago, someone brought up an issue that made me think that tank soft attack ratings might be as much as 1.5x higher than what they should be. I caution that I still have to check the numbers, but if that is true then if would alleviate the situation (unless it is some of the most powerful assault guns of course). It would reinforce that idea that infantry must counter AT guns, because tank soft attack ratings would not be high enough in most cases, and it would encourage tanks to assault infantry to drive them off.

Anyway, I will investigate that when i get the chance. The numbers are more than likely correct as they are, but it wouldn't hurt to check.

[Volcano Man]

Just to follow up on my last comment, no, the soft attack values appear to be correct. Oh well, I it doesn't hurt to double check the numbers once in a while.

[Liquid_Sky]

Having played an alt campaign of Kharkov 42, Normandy 44, and Budapest 45, I find that in Kharkov 42, its best just to take it, but there is always some sort of weapon you can use. Infantry shouldnt be able to handle armour, because you have lots of them.

Dont forget you can assault..you do have a Hard Attack, its just its range is 0, meaning you have to go into close combat to use it..just make sure you have odds....