Point Values

[K K Rossokolski]

I see an issue with that. If no one else does, then fine, leave it alone. Having designed many game scenarios myself in other game systems, I fully understand the difficulty in creating a "balanced" scenario, but I believe there is a market out there that wants to be able to "build " their own army for a particular time period, create or have a randomly created map, and go at it with "X" points per side. This is quite common in miniature based games for various periods, and I feel that such a capability would increase market share for CS.

This capability has been there since the game first appeared. Expanded in various stages, it now encompasses the period from mid 1930s to 1945 with, as far as I can see, all involved armies. Divided Ground has evolved into a Vietnam version. Developments are under way, I understand, to expand into later conflicts.
You can build a map. make your OOB, create a scenario. What is the problem? Your only limitation is that the game requires the use of the installed OsOB. Since these are historically accurate, and this is a historical game, what more do you want? And there are no limitations on building a hypo, lots of people do.

To create a point system is not rocket science but requires that one have all the variables and data that affects play. Then it is a simple matter to assign initial values to the variables, and then a lot of playtesting.

- Greg

Actually, I think it is a bit like rocket science. Clausewitz said that War in essence is very simple...but each of its manifold elements is very complex. In my experience, he was dead right.
CS has a large, growing and complex value system that generally has stood the test of time. We continue here to discuss issues concerning value, but they mostly concern individual units, or unit types. This is the first time I can recall a suggestion to start again from scratch. How many units are there in total?...must be more than 5000. What values would you assign, for example, to Brazilian engineers? Mongolian packhorses? Japanese siege arty? Panther tanks? Sov ATRs? Trucks? Should different trucks be of different value? What about the humble horse and cart?

I think what we have is an outstanding basis...not perfect, but it will continue to evolve. As always, the unattainable perfect is the deadly enemy of the existing good.

[Valor]

To clarify once again; I understand that a plain Jane Russian infantry unit and German infantry unit of the same year (whatever year) are the same point cost now, but have greatly differing abilities, firepower being the main one.

Greg,

Have you tried to use JFTC Unit Viewer? I have just took a quick look. Usual Russian infantry is 3 VP. German one is 4 VP starting with Schutzen 40...

Best regards

Slawek

[K K Rossokolski]

To clarify once again; I understand that a plain Jane Russian infantry unit and German infantry unit of the same year (whatever year) are the same point cost now, but have greatly differing abilities, firepower being the main one.

Greg...this plain Jane Russian infantry element...is it those Russian female soldiers? :whis:

Aaaahh! Would that I were younger :smoke:...chicks in uniform turned me on once.

[Mike Abberton]

I think what RADO is talking about would be something like Combat Mission Quick Battles where each side gets a set number of points and then picks units that together total that number of points. I think Steel Panthers (at least some of the versions) have a similar system.

In those type of systems you have to make choices when you pick equipment. Do I take a small number of expensive capable units (like KTs) and risk a lucky shot or two really messing with my forces, or do I pick a large number of mediocre units (PzIVs) and hope to overwhelm my opponent? In CM, increasing a unit's experience increases it's cost. There is also an option to increase or decrease a unit's cost based on its relative rarity, if desired.

Admittedly, the CS points system would not really work for that sort of function as is. Not very well at least for some units. But at the same time, considering the sheer number of scenarios available, I am not sure that a Quick Battle type system would really add much to CS. While I do play them in CM, I find that they get boring after a while, because they play out very similarly and they tend to be very artificial feeling.

[Jason Petho]

I think what RADO is talking about would be something like Combat Mission Quick Battles where each side gets a set number of points and then picks units that together total that number of points. I think Steel Panthers (at least some of the versions) have a similar system.

In my post on the first page, I was trying to show you can do that, although it does require manual calculations at the moment.

I may considering adding VP value for company -- battalion organizations in the future if it is a popular idea.

Jason Petho

[K K Rossokolski]

I think what RADO is talking about would be something like Combat Mission Quick Battles where each side gets a set number of points and then picks units that together total that number of points. I think Steel Panthers (at least some of the versions) have a similar system.

In my post on the first page, I was trying to show you can do that, although it does require manual calculations at the moment.

I may considering adding VP value for company -- battalion organizations in the future if it is a popular idea.

Jason Petho

Is this whole thing then about .......arithmetic? I do a calculation like that every time I go to the bloody supermarket. Without a calculator, usually.

[umbro]

I may considering adding VP value for company -- battalion organizations in the future if it is a popular idea.

This is probably the right way to go, in the sense that it is a path that can be made to work.

Take the "Purchase Point" concept higher up the command chain so that many of the "value" units (HQs, leaders, transport, etc.) are contained within a "combat effectiveness" model.

One can imagine an addendum to the game that allows players to choose units and provide them initial start positions (or entry locations) based on battle type.

umbro

[Jason Petho]

Is this whole thing then about .......arithmetic? I do a calculation like that every time I go to the bloody supermarket. Without a calculator, usually.

All the data and tools are there to do the calculations manually.

Although, it would be simplier for those so inclined to look in the org editor and see:

39 12 40 10 C0102332 5 Type 6 Schützenkompanie c.(mot) 40 (Green)(K.St.N. 1115)[Krupp Protze] - 105VP

instead of...

39 12 40 10 C0102332 5 Type 6 Schützenkompanie c.(mot) 40 (Green)(K.St.N. 1115)[Krupp Protze]

Jason Petho

[K K Rossokolski]

One issue springs to mind...are leaders included? My subjective impression is that few scens comprise leaders down to Coy level. And does this new idea mean that a scen designer cannot play around with company strengths, should he wish?

[Jason Petho]

One issue springs to mind...are leaders included? My subjective impression is that few scens comprise leaders down to Coy level. And does this new idea mean that a scen designer cannot play around with company strengths, should he wish?

For scenario design, the org editor is an extremely powerful tool.

What I have been trying to accomplish with each UPDATE is an improvement in the selectability of various "historical" (based on TO&E's that I have in my library or that I can find elsewhere) order of battles that a scenario designer can add to a desired scenario with minimal extra effort.

Of course, the extra effort is always available. Delete a platoon from a company you don't like or add a platoon you prefer based on a specific OOB you have in your possession. Adding a leader is fairly straightforward, but I have been trying to add them to some regular and most veteran type organizations. One can easily replace or remove them if they don't need them or require them.

The freedom associated with the Campaign Series scenario design is the utmost reason I have pursued it since it originally came out in 1997. It offered so many capabilities that Steel Panthers offered at the time by SSI back in 1995 (I designed scenarios religiously for Steel Panthers as a hobby). You can create any organization within the org editor for most any scenario you can think of as long as the platoons are available. I also prefer the platoon scale of the Campaign Series.

So, by offering the company VP value in the organization editor ... does that impede a scenario designer to play around to do whatever they wish?

No, of course not. As now, they are just base organizations to adjust as one desires.

Jason Petho