Point Values

[junk2drive]

What I don't like about SP and CM generated battles is the opponent that wins because he is a better purchaser. Someone who has played the same country over and over and cherry picks the flukes. Or suggests a points total because they know they can buy their favourite units with that amount. The professional ladder climbers.

On the other hand, why doesn't CS have a 0-100 scale or something? Start at 50 and adjust up or down.

[K K Rossokolski]

The freedom associated with the Campaign Series scenario design is the utmost reason I have pursued it since it originally came out in 1997. It offered so many capabilities that Steel Panthers offered at the time by SSI back in 1995 (I designed scenarios religiously for Steel Panthers as a hobby). You can create any organization within the org editor for most any scenario you can think of as long as the platoons are available. I also prefer the platoon scale of the Campaign Series.

So, by offering the company VP value in the organization editor ... does that impede a scenario designer to play around to do whatever they wish?

No, of course not. As now, they are just base organizations to adjust as one desires.

Jason Petho

Thank you for a comprehensive response. Seems to me you might be opening up a lot of work for yourself, merely to cater for people who don't know or won't accept that 1+1=3 ;)

[Glint]

With the aid of a friend, I've been working on some tools for designing scenarios. The inclusion of VPs in the OOB's would be a great boon in my opinion and would conclude the concept I am working on. It would speed up a lengthy business of building forces with near-equal points.
Way to go Jason I say!

Peter

[Herr Straße Laufer]

With the aid of a friend, I've been working on some tools for designing scenarios. The inclusion of VPs in the OOB's would be a great boon in my opinion and would conclude the concept I am working on. It would speed up a lengthy business of building forces with near-equal points.
Way to go Jason I say!

Peter

I'm not sure if I am lost here?
What does "near equal points" have to do with a scenario?

I've often found that equal forces is a detriment to a scenario's balance. And, the historical battle with near equal forces are few and far between?
The "charm" of many scenarios are in the tactics that are required to gain victory.
Take EFII's "Red Steel at Fedorovka". I have not done the math but, I think that the forces are not balanced "points wise" but, if played without Extreme Assault and Variable Visibility it is one of the most balanced of the smaller sized scenarios.

I'm honestly not sure if a point value formula could truly create a balanced scenario. It is the scenario designer that has to do the work to create one based on force mix and objective hexes. :chin:

RR

[keif149]

Hi Jason,

I like your idea for showing the vp value. I hope you decide to use it.

Thanks!

[Huib Versloot]

With the aid of a friend, I've been working on some tools for designing scenarios. The inclusion of VPs in the OOB's would be a great boon in my opinion and would conclude the concept I am working on. It would speed up a lengthy business of building forces with near-equal points.
Way to go Jason I say!

Peter

I'm not sure if I am lost here?
What does "near equal points" have to do with a scenario?

I've often found that equal forces is a detriment to a scenario's balance. And, the historical battle with near equal forces are few and far between?
The "charm" of many scenarios are in the tactics that are required to gain victory.
Take EFII's "Red Steel at Fedorovka". I have not done the math but, I think that the forces are not balanced "points wise" but, if played without Extreme Assault and Variable Visibility it is one of the most balanced of the smaller sized scenarios.

In historical scenarios the designer will build forces according to the sources without looking at their value. Looking at values comes later, when you have to determine the victory conditions. Here inclusion of values in the oob would save some work (you don't have to count everything yourself)... if you choose to count that is...
I must admit that I hardly do any counting and calculating and do most of the balancing by instinct and feeling with some corrections of the victory conditions/ objectives after a few first test runs. Only the damn Volksgrenadiers :hissy: really force me to count if they are in the scenarios.

I'm honestly not sure if a point value formula could truly create a balanced scenario. It is the scenario designer that has to do the work to create one based on force mix and objective hexes. :chin:
RR

Exactly.

Huib

[umbro]

So, what I am hearing is that a simple tool that read a .SCN file and reported the VP totals (grouped in the same hierarchy as the OOB) might be useful?

umbro

[Glint]

I take your points Ed/Huib, but I'm referring to 'hypothetical' battles that we are working on.
The idea we had was to build forces upto a 'point level' and build each side's force as we wished, keeping the organisations based on OOBs as in the editor, albeit loosely.
It would certainly not appeal to anyone who wants a 'historically correct' scenario, it possibly would appeal to people who want to play a scenario for fun, whilst still giving the charm of using tactics based on what equipment one has chosen?
Just that there are different ways that people get enjoyment from the game, not just a case of 'Historically correct' games being the only way to play?
Going back to the original discussion, I'm just stating that I would love to see the vp's included in the oob for my personal reasons. I'm certainly not trying to sell the tools we are working on, they've worked well for us in creating battles and perhaps one day we'll make them public for the club. But it will be a case of like it or leave it.
As I think Von Earlmann said? - if you enjoy it, play it, if you didn't it was just a waste of time, that's all!
I have to agree that I find all this number crunching a brain-numbing process when all we want surely, is a fun game to play?
Each to their own tho' and I respect that.
regards
Peter

[Jason Petho]

So, what I am hearing is that a simple tool that read a .SCN file and reported the VP totals (grouped in the same hierarchy as the OOB) might be useful?

umbro

I think it would be, yes.

I would imagine most of the people asking for the addition of VP allocation would be those with table-top wargaming behind them?

Jason Petho

[Herr Straße Laufer]

In historical scenarios the designer will build forces according to the sources without looking at their value. Looking at values comes later, when you have to determine the victory conditions. Here inclusion of values in the oob would save some work (you don't have to count everything yourself)... if you choose to count that is...
I must admit that I hardly do any counting and calculating and do most of the balancing by instinct and feeling with some corrections of the victory conditions/ objectives after a few first test runs. Only the damn Volksgrenadiers :hissy: really force me to count if they are in the scenarios.

Herr Palfons,

I agree. LOL! (I wonder how many members who read this forum have just fainted?) :smoke:

Often, when reading historical accounts, we see the formula of 3 to 1 advantage to the attacker before most "allied" attacks were launched. Even Rommel and Guderian tried to put the most weight at the weakest points, but generally fought with smaller forces, with lower ratios?
Later in the war the Soviets were experiencing 10+ advantages, which made the Volksgrenadiers even more valuable? :rolleyes:

I think a tool given, to show company or batallion level point values would be beneficial to a degree. I think your method, which is close to mine, will play out better than simple number's calculations. Those who think in terms of fun, balanced, scenarios based on a historical even but, not "historically" made, have a slightly easier time in creating "balance". But, the "historical" designer needs that "feel" and creativity that you describe to adjust victory level to make the game balanced. :chin:

You bring up the Volksgrenadiers? Remember they even struck fear into battlehardened Soviet troops when well armed/supplied with the Panzerfaust. And, many were equipped with automatic submachine guns which made them more powerful defenders in built up areas?
When they are the last best hope for Germany's defense they would have more value than the kids and old men they actually were?

I'm not trying to argue the point. I just like to have a better perspective on the individual units, and their worth, in their moment in time.



Ed