Armour Effectiveness Modifier

[James Ward]

As for assualting ....no matter how strong the unit is, if its disrupted, its gonna retreat..and I love to see a 90 vehicle unit become 45.

Assuming you can surround it :)

[Dog Soldier]

I ran a quick test of the stock version of K43 CG 0705_01 The Battle of Kursk.

I attacked in successive assaults a single battalion of the Pzkw Vd Panthers (96 tanks). I used the Russian armor from the 1st Tank Army.
6th Tank Corps
3rd Mech Corps
31st Tank Corps
5th Guards Tank Corps
A combined total of ~734 tanks.

All these large Russian organizations assaulted once on their own. Both sides started at near zero fatigue and full strength with a few minor losses from vehicle breakdowns as I moved them towards each other. There were no penalties for using tanks from different organizations. Both sides kept their units in command.

The assault factors of the T-34cs is 14 to the Panthers at 18. Panther defense is 22 while the T34c has defense of 18. There is one unit of Churchill lend/lease tanks and some T-70 cannon fodder in these formations. The German Panthers are A morale and the Russians are C morale. No units involved were low fuel or low ammo.

I maximized the number of Russian tanks in each Corps assault to achieve as close to 160 tank maximum allowed. Extra tanks were brought up inside the two stacks in each attack to insure a good assault if a unit disrupted from defensive fire.

When the dust and smoke cleared, 176 Russian tanks were destroyed to 18 Panthers inflicting 150 fatigue on the Panther battalion. These numbers include defensive fire prior to the assaults.

This may seem bad for the Russians.
24% of the Russian forces committed were lost to inflict 19% losses on the Panthers. Fatigue to the Russian attackers was uneven. Of the 28 units committed...

21 were green fatigue (20-70)
4 were yellow fatigue (112 - 170)
3 were red fatigue (241 - 300 (broken))

This means 75% of the Russians forces are still green fatigue. Once units that disrupted are rallied, another attempt could be made.

I doubt any standoff shoot out would result so favorably for the Russians. Defensive fire from the Panther Bn was knocking out six and seven Russian tanks per shot.

The battle is like ants against an elephant. The elephant will kill many ants, but he can be eventually worn down. A tough proposition to be sure.

As most of you who have played the stock version of the K43 CG know, it might be a better Russian strategy to use swarms of Russian tanks to smash the Axis infantry and Pzkw III and IV units avoiding direct battle with the Tigers and Panthers. Let the numerous infantry, AT guns and air strikes wear these Axis monsters down before risking a tank to tank battle.

Dog Soldier

[James Ward]

I doubt any standoff shoot out would result so favorably for the Russians. Defensive fire from the Panther Bn was knocking out six and seven Russian tanks per shot.

That's almost a 10-1 loss ratio for the assault.
If you could get all the russian units shots then it might be better to shoot it out. The Panther gets a max of 6 shots per turn. If you could get 700 russian tank to fire 3 times per turn you might end up in better shape. You'd probably have more tanks left at worst :)

Of course after you whittle the Panthers down you need to work on the other 80 strength tank units that follow them

[Lien Leposh]

From the K43 test posted above Its kind of convinced me that the maths generally works. (Yes I am sure that there are squillions of outcomes possible in a normal distribution curve, but I dont yet propose asking Dog Soldier to re-run the test 99 more times to prove me right :cheeky:)
Hmmm think I will just settle down and enjoy the game instead of thinking too much about the maths :chin:

Cheers All
LL

[Jison]

Hmmm think I will just settle down and enjoy the game instead of thinking too much about the maths :chin:

Cheers All
LL

In my mind, an excellent decision! :) That is the only way to play and still keep that special feeling of taking part in history.

Jison

[Dog Soldier]

Actually, if you try to shoot it out with the Panthers, the strong Panther defense rating will kill you. As I mentioned in my test, the 20 - 40 tank Bn and rgt sized Russian T34c units were losing seven tanks and gaining 50 to 70 fatigue points with each Panther defensive fire. While 700 tanks sounds impressive, they can not all fire at once. The Panthers would quickly disrupt, fatigue, or destroy enough T-34c tanks to render future attacks less effective. I was trying to point out that in the course of a full days combat, a shoot out may not be the best solution.

Historically the Russian tactic was to assault. Get in close to negate the German advantage in optics and the 88mm guns on the Panthers. Sure you will lose ten - one, which is miserable. But in actual game turns, the Panthers will enter such a battle after two or three days on the southern side of the salient. By then, combat may have cost them more fatigue and actual losses along with breakdowns. The Panther units should be prime target for the Russian air strikes. My test started with the Panther Bn near zero in fatigue and only a few tanks lost. As the cumulative results of the assaults wore on the unit, Russian losses were less. Russian tank losses were not a straight line, but a descending curve.

In any case, one has to tackle these beasts with shear numbers.

Dog Soldier

[James Ward]

Actually, if you try to shoot it out with the Panthers, the strong Panther defense rating will kill you.

What I meant is you won't lose 170 tanks to their fire in one turn and you might accidentially pick off a few if you somehow can get all 700 of you own tanks to get off a few shots at them :)

[Liebchen]

Thanks for the very illustrative test, Brian. One small typo, though:

Historically the Russian tactic was to assault. Get in close to negate the German advantage in optics and the 88mm guns on the Panthers.

:)

[alaric99x]

Pz VD, PzVA and PzVG all with 75mm KwK 42 L/70 main guns.