Wiped out passengers

[Jumbo]

It's quite apparent in the game that if trucks/halftrack or tanks are attacked by either direct or indirect fire while carrying/transporting troops. those troops/passengers being transported by those truck/halftracks or tanks are very easily wiped out. It is realistic that those transported troops would suffer greater, And even far greater losses than troops moving about in the open under most conditions. However my question is this. Wouldn't those troops being transported dismount that or those vehicals once they came under the kind fire that would wipe them out ?. My thought it to have it programed in the game, That if a vehical did come under direct or indirect fire that was transporting troops. Those troops would be forced to dismount provided it would not over stack that given hex they would be in. If that hex would be over stacked with SP's, Then those transported troops would suffer those terrible blows that they have all ways recieved in the past. Any ideas on this ?

[Huib Versloot]

The troops should automatically dismount after the first vehicle is hit. CS is just not very good here I think

[Von Luck]

There again if a truck etc is hit several times in a turn with troops and wiped out why complain more than one unit firing on it and the time scale 6 minutes per turn.Example not always accurate would be 4 loaded trunks ambushed or come into the line of fire of 4 enemy units thats 8 shots from the enemy if no mg units involved.Thats a lot of killing power against unarmoured trucks.The game treats H/T's slightly differently ie better armour. Just my thoughts no nasty feedback please.

[Jumbo]

There again if a truck etc is hit several times in a turn with troops and wiped out why complain more than one unit firing on it and the time scale 6 minutes per turn.Example not always accurate would be 4 loaded trunks ambushed or come into the line of fire of 4 enemy units thats 8 shots from the enemy if no mg units involved.Thats a lot of killing power against unarmoured trucks.The game treats H/T's slightly differently ie better armour. Just my thoughts no nasty feedback please.

I don't see anything wrong with viewing it that way. It is a turn based game. And two, three or four units attacking a given transport at one time is probably just as likely as one unit attacking I'd suppose. But wouldn't attempting to model something more realistic when vehicals carrying passengers that are being attacked be better ?. Realistically thinking now. Would those passengers stay inside or on top of a vehical for a full 6 minutes while it was under fire, Waiting for their turn to be wiped out ?. That would never happen. I'm pretty certain there are far and away more accounts of troops off loading from transports that were under fire, than the "I'll just tuck my chin in and ride this one out" approach it seems we are seeing with CS. There is no question that exposed transported troops should suffer a greater losses than troops on foot. But the present approach to this aspect of the game should be looked at to provide more realism IMO.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

One needs to remember that this is a turn based simulation. The combat results are a simulation of what happened over the turn.

No unit ever stayed exposed to gunfire for 6 minutes, whether mounted or unmounted. They hit the deck, dove for cover, etc.

That cannot be modeled in the CS. CS is not that type of game.

When a loaded truck, passengers on tanks, etc gets attacked multiple times in a turn they are in actuallity being attacked by all the units during the 6 minute turn. The limitations of the game engine sees this fire being resolved of course one unit (or stack of units) at a time by the player, eventhough it is a composite of what happened over the 6 minutes.

So when a platoon of loaded trucks wanders into enemy fire you get an accruate result. The platoon of trucks gets wiped out.

What you are assuming is that every single man sat there and got killed.

That is not in actuallity what happned. What happaned is more along the lines of this (a 3 SP loaded truck platoon with 2SP of infantry per truck):

1st Truck SP: the truck takes a direct hit killing / wounding all on board. Lose 2 SP

2nd Truck SP: the driver of the truck and 2 SP of infantry panic and exit the truck without the majority of their weapons, ammo and equipment, which renders them ineffective on the battlefield. Lose 2SP

3rd Truck SP: truck hit with a couple men in the 2 SP of infantry wounded; the other unwounded men get the wounded onto makeshift stretchers and head for the battalion aid station. Lose 2 SP.

If you take the time to accept that the game is a abstract suimulation of what occurs over 6 minutes on the battlefield you would realize the hundreds of little things that happen that the game cannot and should not model.

Thanx!

Hawk

[Jumbo]

One needs to remember that this is a turn based simulation. The combat results are a simulation of what happened over the turn.

No unit ever stayed exposed to gunfire for 6 minutes, whether mounted or unmounted. They hit the deck, dove for cover, etc.

That cannot be modeled in the CS. CS is not that type of game.

When a loaded truck, passengers on tanks, etc gets attacked multiple times in a turn they are in actuallity being attacked by all the units during the 6 minute turn. The limitations of the game engine sees this fire being resolved of course one unit (or stack of units) at a time by the player, eventhough it is a composite of what happened over the 6 minutes.

So when a platoon of loaded trucks wanders into enemy fire you get an accruate result. The platoon of trucks gets wiped out.

What you are assuming is that every single man sat there and got killed.

That is not in actuallity what happned. What happaned is more along the lines of this (a 3 SP loaded truck platoon with 2SP of infantry per truck):

1st Truck SP: the truck takes a direct hit killing / wounding all on board. Lose 2 SP

2nd Truck SP: the driver of the truck and 2 SP of infantry panic and exit the truck without the majority of their weapons, ammo and equipment, which renders them ineffective on the battlefield. Lose 2SP

3rd Truck SP: truck hit with a couple men in the 2 SP of infantry wounded; the other unwounded men get the wounded onto makeshift stretchers and head for the battalion aid station. Lose 2 SP.

If you take the time to accept that the game is a abstract suimulation of what occurs over 6 minutes on the battlefield you would realize the hundreds of little things that happen that the game cannot and should not model.

Thanx!

Hawk

Hi Hawk,

I like your way of explaining how these losses came about. I have known for some time now (many years). That losses in CS can be attributed to many other things rather than an out in out kill. And that's a very reasonable and a good thing. However the CS way of simulating what happens over a 6 minute game turn in regards to loaded passengers is more than a bit extreme than it should be. The CS way of simulation is that if your transported troops and your transports comes under attack from practically any range by most any weapon in that 6 minute turned based simulation. Those transported troops are allmost allways wiped out as a fighting force. That certainly could happen of course given the type of weapons systems that may have attacked them over a 6 minute time frame. But from what I have seen across the board over the years, given what was being used to attack those loaded transports versus the transport type and who was being transported. IMO this 6 minute simulation is to extreme. I would certainly understand if transported troops took 2 or even 3 times the loss rate of none transported troops while under attack loaded on a transport. But wouldn't transported troops who were under the kind of attack that would wipe them out if they remained in the so called transported mode. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect them to dismount those transports sometime during that 6 minute turn based simulation, In an attempt to not being wiped out as an effective fighting unit ?. How many times have we seen a loaded 3sp truck unit transporting up to 6sp infantry unit come under attack from even the extremes of the attacking units attacking range and seen an action result of passengers eliminated. It's incredibly common. But how common was that really under real combat conditions ?. I don't believe transported troops who did in fact come under fire were all most all ways wiped out as an effective fighting force as we are seeing presently. That's just my take on it. And I am aware that my views could be wrong given how the CS game was originally intended to be modeled.

Regards,

Eric

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Hi Hawk,

I like your way of explaining how these losses came about. I have known for some time now (many years). That losses in CS can be attributed to many other things rather than an out in out kill. And that's a very reasonable and a good thing. However the CS way of simulating what happens over a 6 minute game turn in regards to loaded passengers is more than a bit extreme than it should be. The CS way of simulation is that if your transported troops and your transports comes under attack from practically any range by most any weapon in that 6 minute turned based simulation. Those transported troops are allmost allways wiped out as a fighting force. That certainly could happen of course given the type of weapons systems that may have attacked them over a 6 minute time frame. But from what I have seen across the board over the years, given what was being used to attack those loaded transports versus the transport type and who was being transported. IMO this 6 minute simulation is to extreme. I would certainly understand if transported troops took 2 or even 3 times the loss rate of none transported troops while under attack loaded on a transport. But wouldn't transported troops who were under the kind of attack that would wipe them out if they remained in the so called transported mode. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect them to dismount those transports sometime during that 6 minute turn based simulation, In an attempt to not being wiped out as an effective fighting unit ?. How many times have we seen a loaded 3sp truck unit transporting up to 6sp infantry unit come under attack from even the extremes of the attacking units attacking range and seen an action result of passengers eliminated. It's incredibly common. But how common was that really under real combat conditions ?. I don't believe transported troops who did in fact come under fire were all most all ways wiped out as an effective fighting force as we are seeing presently. That's just my take on it. And I am aware that my views could be wrong given how the CS game was originally intended to be modeled.

Regards,

Eric

Hello Eric,

Actually trucks are a much more hardy than they used to be. Now they are not almost always wiped out.

In fact some have complained about that:

Krec Wrote:
Also i have notice sometimes i cant even kill transports with shots. Trucks should be dead meat almost everytime, but i am not finding that. This just adds to the littering affect.

To which I responded with:

I have to disagree with you here. You used to be able to wipe out a 6SP platoon of loaded trucks with a 1FP shot from a 1SP unit.

That is no longer the case, which is a good thing. The loaded transport being 100% destroyed when shot at went from 99% down about 70% with the other 30% being made up of retreats, a step loss (1 SP, 2SP, 3SP) or a no effect (lets face it your guys could miss)

I think the killing of unarmored transports is spot on!

I would think you might want to play a few more turns with the 1.04 rules and I think you will find that it is much better.

Thanx!

Hawk

[umbro]

Bear in mind that you are describing only half of the time (your opponents turn). When opfire fires at your truck you get the chance to unload or pedal to the metal! I like the idea of being able to make that choice myself rather than being forced to bail every time.

I'm with Hawk on this one. I know that it is frustrating watching this on the replay, but there are ways around it (other than not watching replays :-) )

umbro

[Jumbo]

Hi Hawk,

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I believe I should play closer attention to previous posts. I wasn't aware of this change from 1.02 and 1.04. My bad. And yes I do need to get back into the swing of things and start playing more 1.04 games. Just never ran into the loaded passenger situation in the ones I have played.

Regards,

Eric

[stone0919]

First of all, this whole issue needs to be taken into perspective. The game is designed to be a "simulation" of platoon-level combat in WWII. The time aspect is irrelevant. The rules say a turn represents "approximately" six minutes of real time. I interpret this to mean that time is dynamic and can be different depending on the action taking place. For instance, maneuvering a squad of armor into place, firing, and retreating out of your opponents "line of sight" would surly take more than six minutes to execute. However, charging your loaded vehicles directly into your opponents line of fire would probably take less than six minutes execute... Maybe only three. The point is this, if you, as the over all commander, mindlessly rush your loaded vehicles into your opponents line of fire you have made a grave tactical error and get what you deserve... disruptive / killed infantry.
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However, if you deploy scouts / armor ahead of your transport vehicles to access the threat and use your mounted infantry the way they were used in "real life", the odds of your trucks being hit while loaded is significantly reduced. The use of mounted infantry, in my opinion, is one of the most realistic aspects of the game and requires good strategic planning from turn one till the end of the scenario. Also, its a good way to score points if your opponent tries to move to quickly on the offense or fails to disembark in a timely manner. : )

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