Direct Fire/Assault Questions

[Bacillus98]

Hello. I am trying to understand how combat modifiers apply to direct fire and assaults in conjunction with hex modifiers such as hexsides, terrain, ips, trenches, bunkers, and pillboxes. I will break it up in two main sections to try to explain the befuddlement. I make statements in the post which are based on my interpretation of the rules. If these are incorrect, please let me know.

DIRECT FIRE
When the game calculates for direct fire, what defense modifiers are added up? One must be able to calculate the attack value in relation to direct fire calculations. ATTACK VALUE for men is # of men/10 multiplied by either hard/soft value.

Example 1: target hex has FIELD -25%, Bunker -20%+5. Is the total percentage deducted from ATTACK VALUE in this case going to be -45%? ATTACK VALUE times 45% to give you final modifier?

Example 2: target hex has FOREST -35%, TRENCH -40%. Total percentage calculated to a whopping 75% modifier to ATTACK VALUE.

Do you add the total negative percentages to come up with the final modifier?


ASSAULT
When it comes to figuring out the nuts and bolts here, it seems even more confusing than direct fire. The rulebook states "The maximum hexside modifier of all hexsides between attacking units and the defending units, is used to modify the attackers assault value." My understanding of this passage seems to relay there is NO cumulative adding of defensive modifiers such as Base Terrain, and IP/Trenches, Bunkers/Pillboxes. I am assuming this HEXSIDE MODIFIER rule is referring to only the HEXSIDE COMBAT MODIFIER section of the parameter date dialog file, which in N44 is:

Hexside Combat Modifiers:
Trail: 0% Secondary: 0% Primary: 0% Rail: 0%
Stream: 0% Gully: 0% Canal: 0% River: 0%
Ford: 0% Lt Bridge: 0% Med Bridge: 0% Hvy Bridge: 0%
Dune: -10% Embank: -20% Dike: -30% Escarp: -40%
Cliff: -50%

The rules seem to convey to me that base terrain and IP/Bunk/Pill are useless for assault defense. Why is this? Because the second portion of the rules state "If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attackers assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are DEPLOYED."
So it seems to me vehicles use TERRAIN MODIFIERS and deployed infantry use HEXSIDE MODIFIER for assaults, which you can see is almost useless for the defender unless he is on a cliff, escarp, dike, or embankment.

If you guys can clear up the confusion I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Sgt Fury]

My quick reaction to your questions:

Direct Fire: yes, it is additive. In fact some games like Rzhev have modifiers of >=100% (E class arty I believe, so indirect fire, but same idea).

Assault: This is how it works. I do not know why either. To me it seems like assaulting infantry, with infantry, in a city should be harder than the same in clear terrain -- but no. Maybe someone can enlighten me as why this makes sense in game terms.

Fury

[Bacillus98]

Thanks for the info. Perhaps Glenn or another PzC veteran can explain why.

[Volcano Man]

The reason the terrain and fortification does NOT play a factor in an assault, is because the assault is thought to occur all in the same hex (the defenders hex), so both the attacker and defender are essentially in the same terrain when the assault happens. The attacker does have to cross hex side modifier features to get into the assaulted hex though, so that is why that plays a factor.

As for the fortifications not playing a factor, they DO play a factor on assaults because it is a lot harder to disrupt the enemy *prior to an assault* if they are in a fortification. Also, and this is the most important, bunkers and pillboxes do increase the defense strength of all units in the defending hex and they also convert soft targets to hard targets. Needless to say that is a huge advantage in an assault. So, although fortifications do not play a direct factor in an assault with its defense modifier, they certainly have a role in the assault process. Fortifications can hold off assaults and / or make them very bloody because (such as in N44) it forces the attacker to assault before all defenders are disrupted if the attacker is running out of time or options.

[Aetius]

A few comments on your math:

-> Regarding the direct fire calculations, the fire modifiers are indeed cumulative. There are some important modifiers missing from your math, though: unit quality, unit fatigue and hexside modifiers. It is in fact quite frequent that the mathematical chance of some units causing casualties by fire is zero. A couple of examples out of my head:
- In Normandy, a 90th infantry division infantry battalion (D quality, -20%) firing against an entrenched unit (-40%) in a bocage hex (-50%). Fatigue would be low (0%) and the unit would be firing in the same elevation as the target. The cumulative effect is -110%, which means that for as hard as you may try, you wont cause a single enemy casualty - and trust me, I've played this campaign (VM's mod) three times and never seen it.
- In Salerno the elevation modifier is 25%. For some reason there is only one hex, (29,32), with 300 elevation. All the other elevation changes in the map are from 200m to 600m. That's a double hexside modifier (-50%). So, if the pretty standard allied infantry battalion (C quality) fires from 200m to a german unit entrenched (-40%) at 600m (-50% hexside modifier) in brush (-10%) or broken (-20%) terrain (which are very much the norm) you get a total modifier of -100% or -110%, depending on the terrain. There is no chance of causing casualties on the germans by direct fire.

-> What you can do in the above cases, though, is to assault. Casualties are guaranteed as the terrain modifiers does not matter, nor does the entrenchment level. In the Normandy example above the assaulting infantry battalion would only get a -20% modifier, and in the Salerno one, the -50% modifier from hexside elevation. That would give you the chance to get some kills. Firing would only be a waste of time.

I would recomend you to play a few games with the On Map Results option ticked off if you want to understand how the system does the math, as all the modifiers are listed on the pop-up box - the ones above and still others like infantry fire effectiveness, combined arms penalty, combined organization penalty, etc.

Rui

[Liquid_Sky]

Causaulties dont always tell the winner of an assualt. Fatigue loss is also very important. Even though you may have lost more men in the assualt then the defender, you could have caused him to lose more fatigue. If you can tire out the enemy faster then you lose troops, then sooner or later he will disrupt. Normandy is a good example of this...you may lose 20 out of your 1200 guys to kill 8 of his 140, but your fatigue will be spread over two battalions (say 20 each) and he will lose 46 on his company.

[Bacillus98]

Good stuff in this thread. Aetius, for your terrain fire calculation, how did you know that an elevation change from 200 to 600m gives twice the elevation modifier (25%*2=50%) yet 300 to 600m apparently gives a 25% modifier. I don't really follow the rules on elevation modifier portion that discusses "elevation increments". Increments of "how many meters" is where I am confused on (how do you know what the increment value is, 10 m, 100m??

[Aetius]

That's a good question, and one I would like to know a better answer than this, which is what I usually do: to check the map and count the increments. For example, Salerno has the following different elevations:

0m
25m
50m
200m
300m (actually two hexes on the map 27,33 and 29,32, not one as I wrote above)
600m
1000m
1400m

Any change to the next level I treat as one elevation increment. So far the actual practice of gaming has validated the math. The pop-up message that shows when not playing with the on-map results may confirm that too, though I hardly never use it as it slows down the tempo of playing substancially.

Rui