ATG's at the front line conundrum

[James Ward]

I wish you could move the smaller caliber guns one hex in the deployed mode.

[Volcano Man]

I should add that on my normandy campaign, as the defending germans, I almost exclusively fire on AT guns whenever I can, and have so far killed 1633 guns (we are on turn 185) and have only lost 930. AT-guns are a great source of vp's :)

Hmmm, going preferentially for the guns.
Have you not been sussed out on that score and had them used to distract you from other types of threat... yet? ;)

Do you not consider that to be a bit of a "gamey" tactic because they are such an easy source of VPs or, as a relative newcomer here, am I being naiive?

I don't think it is "gamey" to go after guns, simply because there are ways to protect the guns better. I place AT guns in dug-in positions along a road or other such high speed avenue of approach. If the guns are not dug in then they are certainly vulnerable, and if this tactic is being done then surely the opponent would decide to stop pushing the guns up to the front line before digging in the destination hex.

Since I think the discussion is about Normandy '44, a properly dug in AT gun unit in bocage or city is almost impossible to dislodge with firepower alone, so I can't see dug in AT gun units drawing fire as anything more than a distraction (if they are dug in well).

[Steel God]

Do you not consider that to be a bit of a "gamey" tactic because they are such an easy source of VPs or, as a relative newcomer here, am I being naiive?

Personally I do not consider it gamey play to maximize one's VPs. That is the object of the game. Killing guns because they yield high VP returns is no different than killing vehicles are a preference for the same reason, or using air strikes on naval assets for the same reason. Not gamey, just using the tools you're given to put points on the board. Although the ebb and flow of battle is romantic and all that, at the end of the day it's a game not the real thing, and the winner is determined by points not possession of the battlefield, so do what you can to put every point on the board, while minimizing the ones you give up.

[Vaevictis]

James Ward said:

>I wish you could move the smaller caliber guns one hex in the deployed mode.

Amen to that, it would be perfect.

Faillng that I'd like to see AT included in the inf hard value. But that would upset any existing scenarios -- inf strengthened, defender would lose far fewer VPs without the burden of the guns.

In defender retreat scenarios, I wonder if the defender would benefit in termsof win/lose VPs by just getting rid of all his AT units.

Here's a random idea, probably just stupid, but what if you jacked the replacement rate up on At guns so that the constant T mode losses got replaced fast enough to make them a useful unit?

[James Ward]

If all AT guns had a range it would be different, you could set up and withdraw without an undo penalty.
Maybe you could jack up the defense of the guns in T mode or even consider making them a hard target in T mode just to simulate the dispersed target they would present when deploying in a hex.
Right now I feel that, even on defense, once I let the enemy get next to an AT gun unit it's done for. I have yet to find much use for them on the attack, sometimes I never even move them the entire game.

[Lien Leposh]

I should add that on my normandy campaign, as the defending germans, I almost exclusively fire on AT guns whenever I can, and have so far killed 1633 guns (we are on turn 185) and have only lost 930. AT-guns are a great source of vp's :)

Hmmm, going preferentially for the guns.
Have you not been sussed out on that score and had them used to distract you from other types of threat... yet? ;)

Do you not consider that to be a bit of a "gamey" tactic because they are such an easy source of VPs or, as a relative newcomer here, am I being naiive?

I don't think it is "gamey" to go after guns, simply because there are ways to protect the guns better. I place AT guns in dug-in positions along a road or other such high speed avenue of approach. If the guns are not dug in then they are certainly vulnerable, and if this tactic is being done then surely the opponent would decide to stop pushing the guns up to the front line before digging in the destination hex.

Since I think the discussion is about Normandy '44, a properly dug in AT gun unit in bocage or city is almost impossible to dislodge with firepower alone, so I can't see dug in AT gun units drawing fire as anything more than a distraction (if they are dug in well).

Well thats ok then. If everyone's doing it then I miight dabble myself.
Game etiquette is something I am aware of.
I played Russo German War as Russians once and the opponent moved his battleships far inland in rather a cheeky and scoundrelly fashion.
Its just not cricket you know chaps

[Bacillus98]

If all AT guns had a range it would be different, you could set up and withdraw without an undo penalty.
Maybe you could jack up the defense of the guns in T mode or even consider making them a hard target in T mode just to simulate the dispersed target they would present when deploying in a hex.
Right now I feel that, even on defense, once I let the enemy get next to an AT gun unit it's done for. I have yet to find much use for them on the attack, sometimes I never even move them the entire game.

I agree with James here. This is exactly what I am finding out when it comes to atg's. VM's suggestion in Normandy is fine since the defense against firing comes around to -90% give or take.

[Dog Soldier]

I do not think you have to literally destroy the guns while moving with a direct hit. All that is needed is to incapacitate the crew, who would be vulnerable when the gun is being moved or transported.

Jacking up the defense of the guns in T mode...

This does not make much sense to me.

Dog Soldier

[James Ward]

I do not think you have to literally destroy the guns while moving with a direct hit. All that is needed is to incapacitate the crew, who would be vulnerable when the gun is being moved or transported.

Jacking up the defense of the guns in T mode...

This does not make much sense to me.

Dog Soldier

I was thinking of using this to simulate the smallness of the target. An 8 gun section being towed certainly would be more dispersed than an 400 man battalion in transport column. It would just make it more difficult to kill guns in T mode.

[Jazman]

This is our periodic "vent about the AT guns" thread. They are a constant source of irritation. By golly, they need to be able to be moved a hex while deployed.