Stealth Scenario Changes?

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Can one of the Matrix team let us know why they changed West Front's "Skirmish at Mechili"?

Click link to: Skirmish at Mechili
Shows that it is a D. Bevard scenario and that the visibility was: Visibility - Thick Fog

I remember playing it and the visibility was one or two hexes. Now it is listed as a night scenario. Someone even updated it to include starshells for each side. Funny but no artillery was added that can fire starshells. And, the units seem to set up in different, and haphazard locations? Like jax thrown on the floor. :chin:

What is the Matrix procedure for updating old "original" version scenarios?
In my opinion "Skirmish at Mechili" was a good and balanced fight that I often used to show new players how to fight with both early Brit and Italian armor. Plus, the Brit CS tanks could fire smoke and I often displayed their uses.
Is there any future way to show players that the original scenario has been altered?
Can someone update the scenario to take out the starshells or provide artillery to use them?
And, a little cleanup of the Italian side's set up?

I was truly surprised to see that this was happening.
Why change the classics? And, especially changes that do not enhance them or make them more "balanced", fun, or playable?

Someone had to go in and update the scenario to make the changes that then got included in the Matrix version 1.04 release?
Could those on the Matrix team that do those things also go in and change the descriptions in the Blitz scenario dBASE?
Or, at least put asteriks (*) before the title or a version number after the title?

These little changes just seem to be "slipped in" as surprises? Is there a list of any other "stealth" changes? :eek1:

:soap:
Off the box!



RR

[Jason Petho]

I don't recall any of the original scenarios being modified.

I will look into it in my install when I get home and see what happened.

Jason Petho

[Big Dawg]

I recall one Blitz member converting a number of scenarios to day/night scenarios.

The ones changed have both a night & day version listed in the titles.

Something tells me this is not the case, but it at least gives me a chance to post a reply.

Hi Ed! ;)

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I recall one Blitz member converting a number of scenarios to day/night scenarios.

The ones changed have both a night & day version listed in the titles.

Something tells me this is not the case, but it at least gives me a chance to post a reply.

Hi Ed! ;)

Hi Jack. Good to see you again! :)

I thought I was mistaken but I looked a bit further into it. I copied parts of the scenario file from version 1.04 and from my WFGold disk. Here is what I have found:

CS Version 1.04
10
Skirmish at Mechili
0 0 0 60
0 0 0 0 3
0 0 0 0 80 80
0
0 75 125 200 1
80 80 0 0
Xpnstwt9xl{
Xpnstwt9z}r

D. Bevard
24 January, 1941
Mechili, 100km W of Gazala, Libya: NIGHT [Best played against Human opponent] By mid-January 1941, General O'Connor's Commonwealth forces in the Western Desert had captured Bardia and surrounded the Italian defenders at Tobruk. ____________________________________________________________________
From the original WF Gold disk:

9
Skirmish at Mechili
0 0 0 60
0 0 0 0 3
0 0 0 0 80 80
0
0 75 125 200 1
80 80 0 0
Xpnstwt9xl{
Xpnstwt9z}r

D. Bevard
24 January, 1941
Mechili, 100km W of Gazala, Libya: [Best played against Human
opponent] By mid-January 1941, General O'Connor's Commonwealth
forces in the Western Desert had captured Bardia and surrounded
the Italian defenders at Tobruk.
_______________________________________________

Someone put in the starshells too? :chin:



RR

[K K Rossokolski]

I have been out of play for a long time, but am hopefully returning to something closer to normal. I fully support Ed's concern, as I consider this an important point. I have no objection to modifying scenarios, particularly given the great changes we have seen, and noting that most of the first stock scens seemed to be set up for play against the confuser. H2H, as we all know is much different.
But if this is done, it MUST be done openly, and be seen to have been done, with an identifier, such as eg KKR Mod, included in the title. The .scn file name also needs to reflect changes or mods.
If an existing scen is modified by anyone without such identification, this is unethical behaviour!!

[Jason Petho]

But if this is done, it MUST be done openly, and be seen to have been done, with an identifier, such as eg KKR Mod, included in the title. The .scn file name also needs to reflect changes or mods.
If an existing scen is modified by anyone without such identification, this is unethical behaviour!!

I agree.

Jason Petho

[Herr Straße Laufer]

As most scenario designers know, you must click a button to call/make a scenario a night scenario. And, as with smoke rounds, starshells must be added by the designer. :chin:
As I stated previously, this scenario was not a night scenario and never had starshells. Now we find it has both. As KKR stated, we really should be told, and it is not very ethical to do otherwise.

Everyone knows my personal feelings regarding the addition of Extreme Assault to the game and how it effects all the early scenarios. Originally we were given EA as fixed part of the game, though it is now an option and does not effect early scenarios when not selected.
But, if hard changes are being made, by anyone on the "team" such as what was done to Skirmish at Mechili, it seems more change for change sake that does not measure up to the hope of what EA was added for, and irrevocably changes the individual scenario.
And, the specific changes to Skirmish was a rather poor revision when starshells are added but no units can use them? I would rather have the original version restored in the next update.
I looked at the result reports and it looks like the Axis side has the advantage, by the games played. But, if the Allies are handled properly, under the original design the game is much more balanced than what first appears.
I could not even begin to figure out ahead of time what the scenario will play out as a night scenario. :eek1: But, I just started it with a rookie player. So I will find out. :smoke:

Please know that I am not nit picking here. It just made me wonder what changes may have been made to scenarios that I am less familiar with. :chin:

I trust that Jason will sort this out and put a procedure in place that will track/note these kind of changes. And, I hope that Skirmish at Mechili will be restored to it's original design, or at least have units included that could fire those starshells?



RR

[Huib Versloot]

Could this be the cause??? Still unclear how the original file could be overwritten.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp...s&#1601400

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Could this be the cause??? Still unclear how the original file could be overwritten.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp...Cscenarios?

____________________________________________________

Scenario file name: Mechili.scn

10
Skirmish at Mechili
0 0 0 60
0 0 0 0 3
0 0 0 0 80 80
0
0 75 125 200 1
80 80 0 0
Xpnstwt9xl{
Xpnstwt9z}r
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
1 8 8
0 5 5 2007 21 16 16 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 5 5 2007 20 4 4 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 5 5 2007 19 2 2 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 6 24 9053 376 1 1 3 100 7 0 0 3 3 3
0 8 24 9001 123 1 1 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 9 24 9406 485 1 8 1 100 7 0 0 3 3 3
0 9 24 9001 120 1 32 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 9 24 9001 121 1 2 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 10 24 9001 122 1 32 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
5 11 7 25 2
0 11 19 9053 375 1 1 3 50 7 0 0 3 3 3
0 12 18 2210 388 16 16 1 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 12 18 2036 391 16 1 1 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 12 18 2211 403 16 8 1 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 12 18 2036 406 16 4 1 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
1 12 18 1
0 13 5 2007 28 32 32 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 8 2007 24 8 8 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 8 2007 25 4 32 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 11 2406 481 8 1 1 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 11 2001 448 8 8 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
5 13 11 50 2
0 13 20 9406 486 1 32 1 75 8 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 20 9053 374 1 2 3 75 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 22 9406 483 1 8 1 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 22 9008 132 1 1 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 23 9009 131 1 1 2 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 23 9008 134 1 8 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 24 9008 133 1 1 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 13 24 9008 135 1 8 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 14 5 2007 29 2 16 4 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 14 5 2007 27 4 32 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
5 14 5 25 2
0 14 7 2407 399 2 2 2 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 14 7 2305 17 4 8 2 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 14 7 2007 23 4 1 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
5 14 7 50 2
0 14 9 2001 450 4 4 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 14 9 2001 449 4 2 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
5 14 9 50 2
0 15 29 9407 482 16 16 2 100 7 0 0 3 3 3
0 15 29 9305 118 32 4 2 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 16 19 9053 377 1 1 3 100 7 0 0 3 3 3
0 16 29 9406 484 32 4 1 100 7 0 0 3 3 3
0 16 29 9011 125 32 32 2 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 17 30 9010 126 32 32 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 17 30 9010 127 32 4 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 18 2 2001 39 2 16 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 18 3 2406 400 2 32 1 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 18 3 2001 37 2 16 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 18 30 9010 128 32 32 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 18 30 9010 129 32 4 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 19 4 2001 38 2 16 3 100 5 0 0 3 3 3
0 21 16 2210 386 4 2 4 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 21 16 2036 389 4 32 4 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 21 16 2211 401 4 4 2 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 21 16 2036 404 4 16 2 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 24 7 2210 387 4 2 3 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 24 7 2036 390 4 32 4 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 24 7 2211 402 4 4 2 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
0 24 7 2036 405 4 16 2 100 6 0 0 3 3 3
-1
0 -1
1
D. Bevard
24 January, 1941
Mechili, 100km W of Gazala, Libya: NIGHT [Best played against
Human opponent] By mid-January 1941, General O'Connor's Commonwealth
forces in the Western Desert had captured Bardia and surrounded
the Italian defenders at Tobruk. The 7th Armoured Division did
not wait for the fortress to fall, instead its brigades headed
west in an effort to bag more of the crumbling Italian Tenth
Army and possibly grab the port at Benghazi as well. Seeing an
opportunity to trap Babini's Armored Group at Mechili, General
Creagh dispatched the 4th Armoured Brigade to destroy Babini's
tanks before they could rejoin the infantry divisions. However,
luck went against the British in the early morning hours of the
24th. The cruiser regiments quickly lost contact with one another
as they fumbled through the darkness and only the 6th Royal Tank
Regiment and a squadron of armored cars located the key junction
of desert tracks crossing Cyrenaica. Fortunately for Colonel
Rendell's 6th RTR, Babini had already retired to the west leaving
the reinforced III "Babini" Medium Tank Battalion as a rearguard.
All luck ran out for the British tankers as armored cars of B
Squadron/11th Hussars clashed with an outpost, shattering the
night with machinegun fire and alerting the Italian armor!
_________________________________________________________
Cut and pasted from the two year old discussion on the Matrix forums:

October 30, 2007 simovitch wrote:
Having just recently discovered 'night' rules (I never owned RS until the Matrix version came out) I felt compelled to modify the stock West Front scenarios that occur at night to add this new feature to some old favorites.

I also added 'starshells' to each side based on the number of turns X AI agression setting(%), but never less than 50% of the number of turns. Remember - without a successful starshell your firepower is reduced so these scenarios will likely play out different from the way they were designed.

The following WF scenarios are modified to feature Night rules:
Under Cover of Darkness
Hold Until Relieved
"Shut Your Eyes and Go In!"
First Strike Towards Butgenbach
The Manor la Fiere
Pour l'Honneur
Skirmish at Mechili
Like Thieves in the Night
The Eagle's Talons
The Screaming Eagles in Normandy
A Hard Snow Falls
Ste. Mere-Eglise

The filenames have an "N" appended at the end, and the Scenario Description contains the word "NIGHT", so the original scenarios will not be overwritten and can be identified in the Scenario Menu.

I also took the liberty to fix the dates on those stock JTCS WF scenarios that did not have the correct date format, so now they will list in the correct chronological order. These will overwrite the old versions, but there are no other modifications done to them whatsoever.
download here and unzip into your 'West Front' folder:

WF night conversion
___________________________________________

Thanks for the heads up Herr Huib.
It looks like the updates to night in some of the scenarios were made but nothing was put in place to indicate which ones were modified in the version update of 1.03 or 1.04?
The "N" was not attached to the file name (see above) and except for calling it a "NIGHT" scenario in the title and adding the starshells that could not be used, this scenario was altered without any way for the players to know (unless they have read the two year old message from simovitch on the Matrix forums). Nothing was done to show the scenario was modded.
I would like to ask that Matrix would put indicators into the scenarios that would alert the players to the modifications. This would especially help those who do not read the Matrix forums so precisely?

And, I'd like to see that the original scenario be included in the game, for those who think that the original is a better scenario. :smoke:



RR

[Kool Kat]

_________________________________________________________
Cut and pasted from the two year old discussion on the Matrix forums:

October 30, 2007 simovitch wrote:
Having just recently discovered 'night' rules (I never owned RS until the Matrix version came out) I felt compelled to modify the stock West Front scenarios that occur at night to add this new feature to some old favorites.

I also added 'starshells' to each side based on the number of turns X AI agression setting(%), but never less than 50% of the number of turns. Remember - without a successful starshell your firepower is reduced so these scenarios will likely play out different from the way they were designed.

The following WF scenarios are modified to feature Night rules:
Under Cover of Darkness
Hold Until Relieved
"Shut Your Eyes and Go In!"
First Strike Towards Butgenbach
The Manor la Fiere
Pour l'Honneur
Skirmish at Mechili
Like Thieves in the Night
The Eagle's Talons
The Screaming Eagles in Normandy
A Hard Snow Falls
Ste. Mere-Eglise

The filenames have an "N" appended at the end, and the Scenario Description contains the word "NIGHT", so the original scenarios will not be overwritten and can be identified in the Scenario Menu.

I also took the liberty to fix the dates on those stock JTCS WF scenarios that did not have the correct date format, so now they will list in the correct chronological order. These will overwrite the old versions, but there are no other modifications done to them whatsoever.
download here and unzip into your 'West Front' folder:

WF night conversion
___________________________________________

In addition to the above "modifications" being done to original scenarios (with or without the scenario designers' knowledge? :chin: )...

... was any play testing done on these "modified" scenarios BEFORE they were uploaded into the scenario database? :conf:

Changing original daylight scenarios to night is a HUGE "modification" that will severally alter the scenario game flow, tactics and the ability of forces to obtain various victory levels. Then, throw in other "oversights" like forgetting to include units that can use star shells, and you have a real mess! You have essentially "broke" the scenario!