WSF wish list

[Krak]

After building a CG mod for WSF I would love to see the following enhancements in the TWIE system:

1. Unit Effeteness Recovery Rate as an editable parameter, I have already outlined my reasoning for this in other posts.

2. Air Replacements, we have ground replacements, air is needed as well.

3. Upgrade Mechanism, there needs to be method in the game that allows units to be upgraded.

4. Port Suppression. Currently port suppression only affects units that are embarking from the said port. Suppression should also affect disembarkation.

5. Administrative movement. We have forced marching but we need an accelerated method of moving units in the rear that does not involve a chance of strength loss or penalty for being 'Out of Command'.

6. An editable rail capacity on a per front basis, not just a global value as it is now.

7. Building Defences. There needs to be a way for players to build defensive lines within the scenario.

8. Eliminated units need to be able to be rebuilt with replacements.

Comments most welcome

[Glenn Saunders]

I can only comment on three of these.

4. Port Suppression. Currently port suppression only affects units that are embarking from the said port. Suppression should also affect disembarkation.

As far as I know, a suppressed port is reduced in supply - that is a Major Port if Suppressed would become a MINOR port and I am not sure if a Minor Port becomes an Amphib or is just negated.

If you have an example where you can illustrate this issue, please send me it. I was pretty sure this was working as designed when I last looked at it which was for the Sealion Scns in TFB. Ports that are captured are suppressed for several turns as defined in the PDT. Ports suppressed by air missions are only in effect for one turn and you should see the name change to the orange color.

5. Administrative movement. We have forced marching but we need an accelerated method of moving units in the rear that does not involve a chance of strength loss or penalty for being 'Out of Command'.

Our intend with ADMIN Movement was that this was to be affected by RAIL in Europe - which might not work I know for North Africa. did ralley for more non rail extensive Admin movement and John created the Forced March rules which I know doesn't affect Mot units.

I provided him and example that I thought would justify Mot forced march using France 40 in TFB but I was not successful.

7. Building Defences. There needs to be a way for players to build defensive lines within the scenario.

Agreed - not sure what the mechanism should be however and we have to be VERY Careful here least we end up giving the game engine the ability to gridlock the Eastern Front of the Allies in France 40 to recreate a lessor Maginot Line after the Germans attack.

On the other hand - if it is as slow as rubble clearing or Mine laying in PzC we'll have lots of questions or claims that stuff isn't working. In PzC we made the ability to lay mines but I wouldn't want to try and use this to create the long belts that were layed there in the desert.

Perhaps we could do something which affects NORMAL terrain in the Arid region only - just a thought.

Glenn

[Krak]

Glenn
4. Yeah my mistake about supply, supply works ok. But suppression does not affect disembarkation, IMO this matters.

5. No admin movement in NA is a problem. Also due to the long distances involved I can't use HQ's in a CG mod because everyone goes 'out of command' in the rear area's which just exacerbates the problem of moving up reinforcements.

7. Maybe only allowing construction type units to build defensive lines with a lowish percentage chance would work.

[Glenn Saunders]

Glenn
4. Yeah my mistake about supply, supply works ok. But suppression does not affect disembarkation, IMO this matters.

I am not sure I can think of a historical precidence for disembarkation but there was embarkation at Dunkirk. So I guess tis one is something that would require further justification.

5. No admin movement in NA is a problem. Also due to the long distances involved I can't use HQ's in a CG mod because everyone goes 'out of command' in the rear area's which just exacerbates the problem of moving up reinforcements.

Understood - that is I can imagine that oit could be an issue but I haven't seen it happen.

But if we have a scn which shows this issue we can discuss it further.

7. Maybe only allowing construction type units to build defensive lines with a lowish percentage chance would work.

Ya - have to be really careful here. REALLY careful, least we revert the game to trench WWI type warefare instead of Blitzkreig. This is something that need a lot more thought.

Glenn

[Ricky B]

I meant to reply earlier Michael, but have been very busy. Glenn touched on some aspects, I think/assume that things will chage as the engine builds out toward the end where a real, full blown campaign engine is built to tie together the fronts. I see that engine solving a lot of your requests below - specifically, I see a production engine being developed in some way - if nothing else a set "reinforcement" schedule that provides replacements, rebuild points to "improve" units, training centers to speed up effectiveness recovery, etc. But I would prefer a more in depth production system, kind of a combo of War in Europe from SPI and Fire in the East from GDW.

After building a CG mod for WSF I would love to see the following enhancements in the TWIE system:

1. Unit Effeteness Recovery Rate as an editable parameter, I have already outlined my reasoning for this in other posts.

This would be good for your purposes for now - what I would like would be a "unit" training base or something that is deployed, slow to move, units recover much more quickly there - or even better just set it up that units can enter a rebuilding mode that would do this as long as in specific locations.

2. Air Replacements, we have ground replacements, air is needed as well.

Definitely needed, tied to a schedule/production system as I mention above, I think - or set at scenario start for smaller battles.

3. Upgrade Mechanism, there needs to be method in the game that allows units to be upgraded.

Again definitely, as part of a schedule or production system. Probably not sensible for a fairly short scenario but anything running more than half a year, if anything short of the full blown campaigns should have something for this.
.....

7. Building Defences. There needs to be a way for players to build defensive lines within the scenario.

Again, I think part of a production system or schedule would be good, you build them or get them and deploy them with any friendly unit.

8. Eliminated units need to be able to be rebuilt with replacements.

And the same as above for pts 1 and production related - destroyed units could be rebuilt through a production system at some cost and time involved for deployment at whatever points are allowed when the production is complete, or rebuilt immediately using replacements that already exist.

Good stuff, and hope to see changes along some kind of lines happen as the series evolves toward the final system.

Rick

[Krak]

Thanks for your comments Rick. I agree with your train of thought entirely.

1. UERR. I have broached similar ideas with Glenn but I still have yet to convince him that the UERR is too low. So some support in this area would be appreciated by people with an interest in the series. Or conversely justification of the current rate. Maybe I am wrong. But IMO an editable parameter is needed right now (for CG's). A more sophisticated method could be evolved as the series progresses.

2. Air reps. You would not believe the grief I have had trying to get around this limitation. I have a work around but it nearly drove me nuts. My CG mod goes for 22 months. Its takes about 30-60 days to grind a Sqn down to zero, that’s just with moderate losses.

7. Maybe 'Resource Points' could be used ala Europa.

My CG mod is almost ready to go. Just a few 'bugs' to iron out. Some in the game, some in my mod. Its been a steep learning curve but a lot of fun as well.

[Dog Soldier]

I think one has to consider the differing national tendencies with regards to unit recovery and replacements or rebuilding depleted units.

Some German units were simply disbanded. Others were rebuilt, but manpower shortages caused them to never regain their former strength. I could be wrong, but I believe no unit was completely rebuilt during the war by any of the belligerent nations.

At least I can not think of any examples right now where units were restored to full strength after a mauling.

Dog Soldier

[Tortue Agile]

The 21st Panzer Division history is a good example of what a division can become...

It started as a light division... became a Panzer division while in Afrika... Was destroyed in Tunisia and rebuilt in France...

The 15th Panzer division is even more interesting... It came from an Infantry division transformed in a Panzer division... then was destroyed in Tunisia re-created as a Panzer-grenadier division...

[Krak]

Guys, with number 1, Unit effectiveness. Don't confuse this with unit Strength. Units are rated for Strength AND Effectiveness. Replacements are used to rebuild Strength. Effectiveness only comes back wtih time. Units need to rest for a period of time to get back to high levels of effectivness. Currently if a unit is reduced to 50% Effectiveness it will take 50 turns=100 days= More than 3 months of rest to get back near 100% Effectiveness. Strength will not change during this period unless Replacements are added. If they are added it will take even longer to recover full Effectiveness.

My arguement is that it takes too long to recover Effectiveness.

[Dog Soldier]

Michael,

Here is my view of unit effectiveness being modeled in TWiE.

I think effectiveness is a function of more than just time. One aspect being modeled by effectiveness is the condition of the unit officers. Even with field promotions, replacing a good officer that is lost is more than just naming his successor. Some officers are replaced by men who out perform the lost officer. Some, while competent, never can match the quality and experience of the officer they replace. Unfortunately some replacement officers are far less effective than the officer they replace. Finally, some very good officers never really integrate with their peers for many reasons. Thus as a unit effectiveness is not what is expected. It can be the level that iis tolerated by senior commanders with a limited number of good officers in reserve.
The same can be said for NCO's.

My point is, regaining 100% effective status during war time conditins may not be possible if we assume the effectiveness rating was set from a baseline when the unit first entered combat.

A faster rate of recovery for effectiveness may not be warranted as experience is required. (This explains the dilution of unit effectiveness by replacements.) Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. In war bad judgment may end experience.

As an example, I would put forth the German SS formations which were decimated on the Eastern front, then moved to bolster the Atlantic Wall. Attrition in Normandy with the subsequent attempt to rebuild prior to Market Garden. These units never really regained their effectiveness. They were much less able to resist the Allies on the western front as time went on even though they recieved priority in men and equipment to bring their TO&E back to full strength where possible.
I am sure other blitz members can give even more examples.

Dog Soldier