Scenarios with time compression

[Vaevictis]

In Moscow 41 some scenarios take place in a number of turns significantly fewer than the actions they depict. How do people feel about them? So far I've been biased against playing them due to qualms about realism, but I would like to expand my understanding of the issue by hearing others' wisdom.

[Bacillus98]

In Moscow 41 some scenarios take place in a number of turns significantly fewer than the actions they depict. How do people feel about them? So far I've been biased against playing them due to qualms about realism, but I would like to expand my understanding of the issue by hearing others' wisdom.

What scenario are you referring to? Please don't take the "mud discussion" too serious, it doesn't imbalance the game greatly imo. :) This is one my favorite periods of the war in the East, so it has a special interest to me. I will assume the supply rules in the game make the Germans feel the pain (low ammo, low fuel) as the mud season/winter begins in full force. Perhaps others with experience with the campaigns can confirm this for me.

In regards to scenarios, the one that strikes me is the "Tula Little, Tula Late" one. It starts on Oct. 27th. Historically, Kampgruppe Eberbach was part of the 4th Pz Division, comprised of the 5th Pz Bde. Racing along the Orel-Tula highway since this was one of the only roads that afforded semi-rapid movement, they captured Plavsk on Oct. 27th. It's labeled Plavskoye on the M41 game map since Russian noun and gender agreement dictate this to be "Плавскoe" ) As a previous student of two semesters of Russian, let me tell you, Russian Grammar is NOT FUN, so my deepest sympathies on whoever had to translate the operational maps.

Here is some more historical information. Oct. 28th, Kampgruppe Eberbach was approx 3-4 kilometers south of Tula, and was able to pierce the flimsy defensive line. NKVD troops, various militia, and anti-aircraft units were able to hold off Eberbach until the 32nd Tank Brigade and two divisions reached Tula soon after. General Guderian spent the next three weeks moving the rest of his forces up the Orel-Tula highway in order to assault Tula. This became increasingly difficult since he had to divert resources to his vulnerable right flank. In early November the Soviets launched a major counter attack in order to cut off Guderian's line of communications to Tula. Not being a military person, I am going to assume line of communications entails a supply line.

So what about this scenario?, It is flawed and I am not sure what it is supposed to represent since its start date is incorrect. The German starting positions should be very close to Tula at the beginning of the scenario. However, this would change the turn length, and quite honestly, the Wehrmacht was too weak to take Tula. They were hoping for a capture via a coup de main. I also want to add that I do not mean any disrespect to the original designer either. It is not easy work collecting the data, maps, oob, etc. In my opinion, the Tula battles really need to be separated into phases, since the time frame is too fragmented. One battle should be the race to the outskirts of Tula (which the stock scenario tries to do somewhat), and the other should be the Soviet counterattack in early November. If the Typhoon campaign game allows the southern portion of the map containing Tula, then you would have an opportunity to try to succeed where Guderian failed. But in the context of this scenario, it shouldn't really be possible except as a result of inept Russian play.

My sources include Osprey Moscow 1941: Hitlers First Defeat and The Battle of Moscow by Col. Seaton. Here is some info on OOB for Kampgruppe Eberbach that I was able to dig up from axis history forum. Perhaps Nafzinger lists include more detailed info.

Eberbach, Heinrich [42. EL] 31.12.1941 Oberst Kdr 5. Panzer-Brigade
5. Pz-Brig : since 27.01.1941 attached to 3. Pz.Div , but re-assigned to 4. Pz.Div on 25.07.1941 (source: KTB 3.Panzerdivision/ Communication between commanding General and divisional commander 3.PD, evening of this day). My German is rusty otherwise I could translate German military terminology for us English grognards.

I have scanned a copy of operational map of the Tula battle for visual reference. It can be viewed here: http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5646/tulabattles.jpg

In conclusion, I have some minor gripes about some of the M41 rules/scenarios, but don't let that stop you from enjoying the game. It's a fun time period, especially for the Germans :)
It is one of the best, if not the "definitive game" on the campaign.

[Vaevictis]

I'm thinking about scenarios like Tail Wagging the Dog? (kalinin.scn), 10 days condensed into 5, or Fancy Meeting You Here (Teploye.scn) condensed to 4 days from an unstated number of days.

The mud discussion did get me thinking about these again, because I assume part of the reason for the time compression is the slow going in the bad weather.

I wonder, for instance, if the compression represents all movement taking twice as long as usual or rather the elision of long periods of rest/regrouping forced by the bad weather.

But I really have no idea what the compression represents, so I started this thread.

[Dog Soldier]

If the Typhoon campaign game allows the southern portion of the map containing Tula, then you would have an opportunity to try to succeed where Guderian failed. But in the context of this scenario, it shouldn't really be possible except as a result of inept Russian play.

I am confused. Why make a scenario where one side has to be inept to win?

Dog Soldier

[Bacillus98]

If the Typhoon campaign game allows the southern portion of the map containing Tula, then you would have an opportunity to try to succeed where Guderian failed. But in the context of this scenario, it shouldn't really be possible except as a result of inept Russian play.

I am confused. Why make a scenario where one side has to be inept to win?

Dog Soldier

The scenario I am referring to is the Tula Little, Tula Late. Kampgruppe Eberbach's forces were not strong enough to take Tula against the hastily raised Soviet forces. He needed more troops, but that took time, while the Soviets reinforced Tula. I was merely stating it would be a difficult scenario to make since it would take bad play by the Russians (moving out of Tula, being hyperaggressive, etc.) to lose the city. You would have to adjust VP's for the Germans accordingly. If you included the battle of Tula in a campaign or longer scenario, you could change history by sending more troops than what historically happened.