Looking for a clear explanation...

[Cross]

What I still don't have a good grasp of is kill. Is that roughly the weapons ability to take out whatever it shoots at? But, certainly that definition would vary greatly depending on what you were shooting and what you were shoot at. An MG will certainly "kill" an infantryman, but it won't "kill" at Tiger. Can you guys try and dumb it down a little more (maybe that's not possible)?

Nick S.

Hi Nick,

Don't worry about warhead size. It's hardly useful, and for you it's more of a distraction than anything.

Let's talk about PEN and KILL

In SP you have two types of targets:

1. Soft
Infantry
Trucks
ATk/arty guns
Most aircraft
Some Half Tracks

2. Armoured
Tanks
Armoured cars
Most Half Tracks
Some aircraft

A weapon's ACC (accuracy) helps determine if you will hit the target.

If you hit an armoured target, your weapon's PEN is what matters next. Because PEN determines if the armour is penetrated, and therefore if the vehicle is damaged or KO.

If you hit a soft target, your weapon's KILL is what matters next. Because KILL determines how much damage is done to the soft target, and therefore if the target is KO.

[roman]

It is good to have a scientific basis to get an idea of how this can be an attack.
Because of my poor knowledge of English I had to use the famous trial and error. It can be fun but you have to bear massacre.
Playing many began to know the units and how they behave. When you get to know the fine is good science, for example, if you choose to expose to attack a tank without exposing it to be destroyed.
Other times you may decide to hit a Tiger with infantry alone to waste your ammo or buttoning.
I hope you understood something. I'm doubting the translator ....:)

[Walrus]

Roman
The translator did OK
Good points.
Trial and error for me too...but a good understanding odf what pen / kill / warhead / etc actually mean, does help.

There is plenty od data there, but if you don't know how to read it...it's useless eh!

[low_bidder]

Warhead is also the size, which is used (or used to be) to determine if the target is in cover or not when calculating casualties. Cover reduces the casualties. IIRC, size 5 or bigger warheads turn Good cover (rough or entrenchments) into clear/no cover. Casualties were calculated on the state ( Moving , moving fast, ready, pinned, retreating, etc.) If the target was soft and in woods, or a wooden building it gets some help but not as much as a stone building. Or not as much as entrenched or in rough, which are the same by game terms.
The actual numbers are on the in game help screen menu.
Warhead size is also used when reloading ammo. Look Waaaay back in the threads and see if you can find one of the reloading threads.
Also remember there are no absolutes in SP. The best chance of a hit is 99%, the worst is 1%. No 100 or 0 percent. IIRC, heat is worse as far as random results. That is realistic. In the laboratory, HEAT gives 3x it's diameter in penetration. That is when you place the charge flat against the plate and trigger it. Out on the battle field, that doesn't happen very often. I dimly remember reading that when the US Army was designing the 66mm LAWs they looked at the 66mm Bazooka to see why it didn't work as well as it should have. It seems the bazooka round was unstable and would rotate around it's axis in flight. It would also wobble. That reduced it's theoretical penetration of almost 200mm to less then 30, on average. Which is why it wouldn't kill a Mk-IV from the front very often. A matter of luck and range. The wobble increased with distance. There was a 'sweet spot' in the range of the early bazookas. In that sweet spot, it was a good weapon. Outside of it, you were better off throwing rocks.

[GUNSLNGR]

There is plenty od data there, but if you don't know how to read it...it's useless eh!

Walrus hits the nail on the head. I've tried the trial and error route for a while, and I can say I think I've hit a level where I need to add a little science to my game.

Cross - your chart is excellent, and will definately help with the range/penetration issue. Question: Why are the ranges on some weapons at ###?

Here's where we are: Range affects penetration (duh) and the round type affects what you are shooting at (again, duh), Penetration and Kill work together in relation to armor. And warhead is important for figuring casualties on soft targets based on its size, type, and terrain of target. How's that?

Now Part 2, is the association of armor and penetration a direct one - meaning if my target has a frontal armor of 8 and I shoot it with a sabot round with penetration of 10 (factoring in the range) - the end result with a hit should be a penetration. 10 being bigger than 8. Obviously there are other factors that probably go into the forumla (slope, "wobbling", bad luck, etc) - but is that a good rule of thumb?

All - thanks to you all for your comments. This is of great help to me and I hope to many other players - new and old alike.

Nick S.

[Imp]

Here's where we are: Range affects penetration (duh) and the round type affects what you are shooting at (again, duh), Penetration and Kill work together in relation to armor.

You are stuck on KILL, again it has zero nothing absolutly zip to do with firing at armour it does not factor into the equation.
Kill is only used vs soft targets while penetration is only used vs hard targets.

And warhead is important for figuring casualties on soft targets based on its size, type, and terrain of target

Its the least important as I think Cross & myself said forget it there is no need to go into that much detail.

Now Part 2, is the association of armor and penetration a direct one - meaning if my target has a frontal armor of 8 and I shoot it with a sabot round with penetration of 10 (factoring in the range) - the end result with a hit should be a penetration. 10 being bigger than 8. Obviously there are other factors that probably go into the forumla (slope, "wobbling", bad luck, etc) - but is that a good rule of thumb?

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell all you have to worry about for firing at hard targets, luck randomness whatever you want to call it will play a part but you know the likely outcome.
As your example there is only a diffrence of 2 damage rather than destroyed is a possibility.

[GUNSLNGR]

Here's where we are: Range affects penetration (duh) and the round type affects what you are shooting at (again, duh), Penetration and Kill work together in relation to armor.

You are stuck on KILL, again it has zero nothing absolutly zip to do with firing at armour it does not factor into the equation.
Kill is only used vs soft targets while penetration is only used vs hard targets.

And warhead is important for figuring casualties on soft targets based on its size, type, and terrain of target

Its the least important as I think Cross & myself said forget it there is no need to go into that much detail.

Now Part 2, is the association of armor and penetration a direct one - meaning if my target has a frontal armor of 8 and I shoot it with a sabot round with penetration of 10 (factoring in the range) - the end result with a hit should be a penetration. 10 being bigger than 8. Obviously there are other factors that probably go into the forumla (slope, "wobbling", bad luck, etc) - but is that a good rule of thumb?

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell all you have to worry about for firing at hard targets, luck randomness whatever you want to call it will play a part but you know the likely outcome.
As your example there is only a diffrence of 2 damage rather than destroyed is a possibility.

OK, OK - I'll never mention kill and warhead again

But, I think your last comment hit it home for me. So, the penetration and armor difference can also affect how damaged/destroyed a AFV will be if hit.

If the penetration is greater than the armor (again accounting for range), then odds are if you get a hit, you'll get penetration. BUT, whether you just get their attention, break something, or blow them up, is ALSO dependent on how much greater the penetration vs. the armor.

For example - in my pen 10 vs. armor 8 senario, result would likely be some damage. But if the pen was 14 vs. armor 5 - then a dead tank is the most likely result. Yes?

If that's true then an AT weapon is made on penetration number alone, for the purposes of taking out a tank. I know accuraccy and range all play a part - but if a gun is very accurate (an ATR for example) but has very, low penetration - then you might as well throw it at the tank. But, I guess the opposite is also true - you may have a very high penetration, but can't hit the broad side of a barn with it - so, again not very effective. The best AT weapon is a combination of the two.

Have I got it?:pullhair:

---

Cross,

Disregard my question about the "###". When I printed out the spreadsheet it all looked fine.

Nick S.

[Imp]

Good grief I think hes got it :)

Thats why in MBT most times things just go bang big diffrence between the penetration & armour levels.

Infantry AT weapons with the exception of ATRs & Guns are all HEAT so range does not matter. ATRs are button up items or use to get there attention so another unit gets a flank shot. Need multiple shots short range & a bit of luck to do anything even then a destroyed result is super rare.
Always try to be stationary when fire inf AT to maximise hit chance, the only exception is if you can get adjacent to it.
If the player is kind enough to let you get 2 squads buy it unmolested if it does not die that turn (unlikely) probably will the next if they have AT & you position them right.
If your best AT weapon is a hand grenade assault it with your last fire giving the guy with the AT weapon a break when he moves in.

[Gila]

Here's where we are: Range affects penetration (duh) and the round type affects what you are shooting at (again, duh), Penetration and Kill work together in relation to armor.

You are stuck on KILL, again it has zero nothing absolutly zip to do with firing at armour it does not factor into the equation.
Kill is only used vs soft targets while penetration is only used vs hard targets.

And warhead is important for figuring casualties on soft targets based on its size, type, and terrain of target

Its the least important as I think Cross & myself said forget it there is no need to go into that much detail.

Now Part 2, is the association of armor and penetration a direct one - meaning if my target has a frontal armor of 8 and I shoot it with a sabot round with penetration of 10 (factoring in the range) - the end result with a hit should be a penetration. 10 being bigger than 8. Obviously there are other factors that probably go into the forumla (slope, "wobbling", bad luck, etc) - but is that a good rule of thumb?

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell all you have to worry about for firing at hard targets, luck randomness whatever you want to call it will play a part but you know the likely outcome.
As your example there is only a diffrence of 2 damage rather than destroyed is a possibility.

This be mostly about WW2 effects of hits on armour.
What about sloping of target and ricochet?

[Cross]

This be mostly about WW2 effects of hits on armour.
What about sloping of target and ricochet?

Armour Slope

The slope of the armour is already factored into the armour thickness.
Example: In SPWW2 the Panther has a front hull armour rating of 14 (14cm). In reality this armour was only about 8cm thick, but at an angle of 55deg. The 8cm plus 55deg angle = 14cm rating.

Horizontal Angle

However, the horizontal angle of the firer to the target is a concern. If the firer is shooting at a Panther which is directly facing him (0 deg) then expect to have to penetrate about 14cm of armour. But if the Panther is turned a little to one side, then expect to have to penetrate more armour, and there's a greater chance of ricochets or glancing hits with no penetration.

This is why AI will not only turn a targeted tank to face the firer (with it's better front armour), but AI will have the targeted tank face a little off to one side, which increase the odds of survival.

Vertical Angle

Vertical angle is only modeled in the game in one way: If the firer is at a higher elevation than the target, then they have a chance of a top hit. Top hits are desirable because most tanks have only 2cm of top armour!

This is another reason to value hills...


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