F 14 Campaign scenario observations

[jonnymacbrown]

In the Campaign Scenario, the first thing that jumps out at me is the huge gap in the Allied line between Lille and Mons. German 1st Army is pointed straight at that gap (amusingly figuratively arrayed like an arrow pointed right at the gap). And it’s not like 1st Army has to move overland in that direction; a very helpful road net takes 1st Army very easily to Lauze, the Canal de Blaton and Tournai, with only the hastily assembled French 88th Territorials (E rated) able to get in position to at least slow down von Kluck. They should be easily brushed aside and by the morning of the 24th, the German 1st Army will be in the wide open spaces just east of Douai, Ostricourt, Lens; astride Allied left, with the BEF and French 84th Territorials (E rated) completely outflanked; them outfits being only released @ 0600 on the 24th. Let’s face it, no German commander is going to frontally assault the BEF position at Mons; it is suicidal. And why bother when that strong position is easily and naturally outflanked? Any thoughts on this analysis by the play-testers? Jonny :smoke:

[Ricky B]

Ed, as the designer and expert on this - definitely not my area of expertise, I used his notes during playtesting - should be able to give you the reasons for this. However, in reviewing his notes, he mentions that the British army began its retreat when the French pulled back on the right flank and the German cavalry pushed past their left flank.

So what you are saying sounds perfectly historical. I will say that I don't see the German 1st army being able to move fast enough to completely outflank the British/French left - there is a river to cross and the French territorial div is able to move up to the only crossing points on it before the Germans come close to arriving, and that is the cav - the infantry is slower and there is almost no way that I can see where they can cross the river, a pre-requisite for outflanking the allies, before the British do release in 2 days time. I am running a test now but so far the movement factors seem to indicate this.

Rick

[Volcano Man]

Historically, the 1.Armee did move around the BEF's flank in a way. HKK.2 swung around that way, and the II.AK was definitely on the flank doing just that through the entire advance to the Marne (see the Cambrai scenario). You might be surprised just how far the 1.Armee advanced west actually, and the formation of the French 6e Armee around Arras is what helped push it back to its neighbor, amongst other things (ie. the Battle of Guise). However, if you are proposing to shift the *entire* 1.Armee west to bypass the BEF, well, I don't think it will work as good as you might think but you never know. Perhaps I should have been a little more liberal with the wired bridges out in that direction, but I guess time will tell if I need to make an adjustment there. Don't forget though, a human can (and should) indeed take the BEF 2nd, 3rd, and 5th cavalry brigades over there on the far flank if he suspects that something sinister is going on, so its not as if the allies only have the two territorial divisions over there to conduct a delaying action.

So, I would say, sure, go ahead and try that approach against another human (I am not sure how the AI would react -- ie. how challenging it would be -- as the cannot be given conditional behavior. The AI won't know to move the three cavalry brigades out to the west flank as mentioned above as it essentially follows a script). It is really not a matter that the 1.Armee cannot do the maneuver you suggest, its more to do with the fact that doing so would put a huge army sized gap between it and its neighbor, the 2.Armee. So if you can manage to make a run that way while minimizing the effect of a huge gap then by all means try it. Otherwise you have a problem with your two main armies being separated, which is exactly what caused the Marne debacle in the first place (how the 1.Armee was pulled away from its neighbor).

I can see if you try to go around the BEF then the BEF and French might be able to put a beating on the German 2.Armee, thereby holding up the process of the whole center at the expense of your 1.Armee going west where there are no VP objectives. So there is definitely an incentive there for going the historical route (straight at the BEF), not to mention the BEF cannot stand and hold indefinitely (the BEF receives no replacements or recovery so what they lose is gone for good), so hammering away at them will indeed get a gradual effect. At the very least you don't want them at 100% effectiveness by the time you get to the Marne. Also, getting around behind the BEF might only hasten the destruction of the 1.Armee if the allies react quickly enough or at the very least hold up the entire advance everywhere else. So, in other words, there is no clear cut answer to what you propose, it comes with its own pros and cons. :)

[jonnymacbrown]

It seems to me that German 2nd Army can also be shifted to the right to support von Kluck, since the Belgian forces in Namur are of no account: 1st Guard Reserve Division, 13th Reserve Division, VII Reserve Korps and Hohere Kav. Kommand 1 can all shift right and support 1st Army. The French really don't have very much there to counter-attack with (53rd Reserve Division D rated, 5th Cav, D rated and fatigued, 3rd Cav, E rated and Fatigued). There are good units of 2nd German Army (VII Korps & X Reserve Korps) to cover those fellows and fill the gap between German 1st and 2nd Army while the Allied right is punctured and fatally outflanked. If I were in command of German forces the choice would be easy. We could put the BEF in the bag later on in open terrain. Jonny :soap:

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"I am running a test now but so far the movement factors seem to indicate this."

Me too. I'm attacking with Hohrer Kav Kommand and 5th Infantry to see if the French 88th can get there and actually hold. I'm betting they can't and the whole of 1st Army and elements of 2nd Army can march into the wide open spaces before Douai. Jonny

[Volcano Man]

Well, it is certainly not a bad idea; all I can say is try it out. You certainly can't expect a historical result if you did it, but I think the point is you are trying to avoid the historical result. ;) It would be interesting to see how two humans would manage the situation and, like I said, if need be I would consider adding in more wired bridges out west to... "gently deter" that option from being a golden bullet type action (if it turned out to be that).

A few other things to remember off the top of my head is that there really isn't that much time to go from the starting point to the Marne (and beyond), so any lateral movement would have to be quick, and from the sound of it a whole day could be spent doing just that, moving. 158 turns might seem like a lot of time, but 20 turns might pass before you can pull of what you want. It doesn't take much to block the path of an army; a defended bridge here and there, a screening force of cavalry at key road junctures, etc, you get the idea. The AI on the other hand probably won't manage to do much of any of that though.

Also, if you are moving the 2.Armee west to cover the gap vacated by the 1.Armee, then the French 5e Armee (which is a very powerful formation) will be free to disengage and do whatever it wants. This is certainly not desired, as the Germans must attack the 5.Armee all out immediately with all available strength, because you have to break it down while it is in a vulnerable disposition. If you don't do that then, well, who knows what will happen beyond the first day, but with a human controlling the 5e Armee -- it will certainly not just sit in the Sambre-Meuse angle and wait for you to trap it from the rear. The CdC, while fatigued, can and should also be sent to the west to help delay the 1.Armee, which it did, and if no attack is occurring on the 5e Armee, then the human should send the full 18e CA straight west to help there, and use it in the formation of the 6e Armee (which starts to form only 6 days into the campaign). So there is another two formations that you might not be thinking of.

In short, the allies did send whatever they could out west to try to contain a flanking maneuver, everything they did was out of an emergency to contain the German advance. What you see on the map as far as the allies are concerned is not how they will remain, but again it all depends on if you are playing against the AI or not. Doing what you describe might certainly be the ticket to defeat the AI though.

[jonnymacbrown]

"Doing what you describe might certainly be the ticket to defeat the AI though."
I'm just going to try a limited attack with 5th Division and 1st Army Kav against myself, i.e. the French 88th which should arrive by RR in time to set up a position, but which will probably not even briefly stop an army. All I do know is that a front assault against the BEF @ Mons is not a pretty picture. J:conf:

[Volcano Man]

"Doing what you describe might certainly be the ticket to defeat the AI though."
I'm just going to try a limited attack with 5th Division and 1st Army Kav against myself, i.e. the French 88th which should arrive by RR in time to set up a position, but which will probably not even briefly stop an army. All I do know is that a front assault against the BEF @ Mons is not a pretty picture. J:conf:

Right, those DITs were not (historically) intended to make a stand in the open field, but if they position themselves in the right place then they can cause problems (delays). All they need to do is spot the key canal crossings in their area and put their field gun units there and some infantry battalions. That alone will hold up the advance for quite a bit, but they cannot (and should not) deploy in the open terrain to try to stop the Germans.

Historically the 88e DIT raced up to Tournai by rail, which it is positioned to do immediately, and disembarked there to hold the road net by the southwest side of the Scheldt. That full division there can certainly cause some problems for at least a day, maybe more. It would give its life in the process, but it would be deemed as a necessary loss if the Germans were suspected as concentrating everything in that direction. :(

[jonnymacbrown]

"Historically the 88e DIT raced up to Tournai by rail, which it is positioned to do immediately, and disembarked there to hold the road net by the southwest side of the Scheldt. That full division there can certainly cause some problems for at least a day, maybe more. It would give its life in the process, but it would be deemed as a necessary loss if the Germans were suspected as concentrating everything in that direction. :("

Here is the situation as I gamed it out: The French 88th Division was indeed able to get into position and are holding as night falls on the 22nd. They are engaged with the motorized infantry of 2nd Kav Kommand and are about to be outflanked by the 4th Kav coming down from the north. German 5th Division will arrive shortly. I'd still rather fight my way through those fellows than take on the BEF in a frontal assault @ Mons. Behind the 88th is nothing but the wild blue yonder.:conf: Jonny

[Volcano Man]

So far that looks historical; HKK.1 and II.AK did go to Tournai, fought its way through that DIT and kept going around the flank, that was their whole objective. If you are talking about a wholesale move of the entire 1.Armee in that direction with the intent on pivoting on Tournai, then that is a different story altogether and will undoubtedly take you a good deal of time to pull off. But like I said, you never know until you try your full plan against another human -- they can be most uncooperative. :whis:

Unfortunately, you never really know how everyone thinks or how they will play a scenario / campaign until it sees the light of day, so its hard to cover every base so to speak. Therefore, I see no problem with me "gently discouraging" an a-historical complete redeployment of the 1.Armee like you describe. Moving everything due west may not actually work well for the Germans because of the time it takes (we just don't know until someone actually tries it against a human in a campaign setting), but I see some areas where it would not hurt to out right discourage such a drastic a-historical-full-hindsight-movement-to-completely-avoid-the-BEF maneuver. In other words, it is no trouble for me to do a few changes to discourage that in the first F14 update, we will see (BTW, I don't know when the first update will be, I am just speaking hypothetically).

So, through the use of more wired bridges and congestion markers (to represent the fleeing civilians) I can certainly help to make it less attractive to "initially go west with absolutely everything". Anyway, for the time being, enjoy the no-holds-barred approach. ;)

[jonnymacbrown]

"So far that looks historical; HKK.1 and II.AK did go to Tournai, fought its way through that DIT and kept going around the flank, that was their whole objective. If you are talking about a wholesale move of the entire 1.Armee in that direction with the intent on pivoting on Tournai, then that is a different story altogether and will undoubtedly take you a good deal of time to pull off. But like I said, you never know until you try your full plan against another human -- they can be most uncooperative." :whis: [/i]

Yes quite true, but there isn't too much that any human player can do, except move that 88 DIT into Tournai and try to hold.

"Unfortunately, you never really know how everyone thinks or how they will play a scenario / campaign until it sees the light of day, so its hard to cover every base so to speak. Therefore, I see no problem with me "gently discouraging" an a-historical complete redeployment of the 1.Armee like you describe. Moving everything due west may not actually work well for the Germans because of the time it takes (we just don't know until someone actually tries it against a human in a campaign setting), but I see some areas where it would not hurt to out right discourage such a drastic a-historical-full-hindsight-movement-to-completely-avoid-the-BEF maneuver. In other words, it is no trouble for me to do a few changes to discourage that in the first F14 update, we will see (BTW, I don't know when the first update will be, I am just speaking hypothetically).
So, through the use of more wired bridges and congestion markers (to represent the fleeing civilians) I can certainly help to make it less attractive to "initially go west with absolutely everything". Anyway, for the time being, enjoy the no-holds-barred approach. ;)"

Right; except I don't think I'd like to see changes creating fewer strategic options, rather on the contrary, let's see changes creating more strategic options: by simply unfixing the BEF as well as the 84th DIT to their left. Then, if von Kluck wants to move 1st Army through Tournai, the Allies may react with a movement of their own. As it stands now, it looks like the 88th DIT will get blown out of Tournai midday on the 23rd, and large German forces will be in open country astride the BEF west of Tournai on the 24th of August. Sounds like fun. Jonny