Carpet Bombing

Volcano Man · 08-13-2010, 10:33 AM,

(08-13-2010, 08:38 AM)Ricky B Wrote: Sorry I maybe didn't phrase it better, but I wasn't trying to say you were the first to do it outside of Normandy, or that it was a bad use, or anything, just that when the setting/rule was developed it was to represent true carpet bombing and the impact of that. The standard games have used them for a few specific models, your assignment to all level bombers works too.

As I mentioned, my only concern has been the huge difference in effectiveness against a big stack vs a small one - I have killed 150 men, deployed, in a Minsk game on occasion and that seems a bit high for the number of bombers involved (12 I think? but maybe more), but not unreasonable either considering everything. I guess my thought is that it was intended for the heavy bombers originally, I believe, and that causes the rule in other usage to be VERY effective, when the bombs hit the target.

Ah, OK, no worries! I was only trying to shed some light on why I did it in the Alt. :)

Marquo · 08-13-2010, 01:16 PM,

>If (in B45_Alt) the bombers are coming in twice per day (not >sure how you know that?)

I wrote that there are multiple missions per day, so 10 or so He-111 units can be used to launch several missions/day - I did not mean to imply that each unit was being used more than once.

>It just sounds to me like you might be a little frustrated? Can >you not just avoid making large stacks so that it marginalizes >the effectiveness of the bombers completely?

Actually I am not frustrated at all - only concerned that the term "carpet bomber" is misused in the true semantic sense of the word - and what I was experiencing was not carpet bombing rather CAS or interdiction.

>Still, there is a known problem of someone using level bombers >in such a way that they save / replay the turn until they >strike the intended large stack hexes every time. These strikes >miss quite a bit so if you are seeing multiple bombers hitting >the same stacks repeatedly are bombarding the front line hexes >near enemy units without ever hitting their own troops then you >have to wonder why they are so accurate.

Well - you are implying that I might be concerned that my opponent may be cheating which is not the case. He is an honorable opponent who is using the tools of the game at his disposable in a talented and legitimate manner.

Having played these games for 10 + years I fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of the system, and I was only trying understand this particular quirk.

Marquo :)

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 08-13-2010, 05:06 PM by Volcano Man.)

(08-13-2010, 01:16 PM)Marquo Wrote: Well - you are implying that I might be concerned that my opponent may be cheating which is not the case. He is an honorable opponent who is using the tools of the game at his disposable in a talented and legitimate manner.

Nowhere in my post did I imply that your opponent was cheating. However, in case it came off that way I will clarify:

I was simply saying (or intending to say) that if you, not necessarily you, but "someone", is/are playing with level/carpet bombers and the opponent, in a hypothetical case, happens to be hitting you, a hypothetical person playing against this hypothetical opponent, with great accuracy then that hypothetical person is probably exploiting the rules by saving and loading the game. In other words, I was stating a known weakness for everyone to look out for.

Is that better? :cheeky:

Marquo · 08-13-2010, 10:59 PM,

>Is that better?

Ed,

It was okay the first time. I have equanimity about irregularities and cheating; I always learn when my opponent rips me a new one - I can almost always understand my mistake which lead to disaster and rarely have to invoke cheating as the explanation.

I am sure my opponent (as am I) is still trying to understand how a single sturmovik air unit vaporized an entire solitary Hungarian engineer battalion of 136 me. The rating of the air unit is 8-12-18; this hard/soft attack values - is the (18) the number of planes or what? We are using your alt version of Prelude; does this seem correct?

Marquo :)

Dog Soldier · 08-14-2010, 07:45 AM,

(08-13-2010, 07:19 AM)Volcano Man Wrote: Still, there is a known problem of someone using level bombers in such a way that they save / replay the turn until they strike the intended large stack hexes every time. These strikes miss quite a bit so if you are seeing multiple bombers hitting the same stacks repeatedly are bombarding the front line hexes near enemy units without ever hitting their own troops then you have to wonder why they are so accurate. I used my Italian level bombers in Compass '40 and all I manage to hit is fish in the Mediterranean!

IIRC, CB accuracy is a function of the morale of the air squadron. B (and even C) morale CB squadrons can hit their targets about 50 - 60% of the time. Like golf, or baseball, these things tend to run in streaks regardless of what the statistical analysis says. At least that is my experience.
The trick is to not confuse them too much by trying to attack enemy targets too close to your own units. If the optional rules allow it, air recon or ground recon spotting (move in, spot, then get the A/C a safe distance away). This will increase the chances the CB hit their targets.

In F40, the Allied CB can be really rewarding when they actually hit a German column in "T" mode far behind the front while it is moving up. Rare, like a fine wine, it is a moment to be savored. :smoke:

Sure beats the hell out of "going fishing" with the CB. Big Grin

BTW, flak does seem to affect the CB accuracy. Try setting up a bridge crossing in F40, maybe near Sedan. :cheeky: Place several batteries of 88mm around the bridge site and a German column in "T" mode crossing it. Even with Allied units on the heights south of Sedan where they can spot the bridge and German column, you will be hard pressed to get your CB attacks to hit the intended hex. They will scatter or even (gulp) abort!
I can imagine the cheering of the poilus as the CBs fly in only to be replaced by the sad faces when the bombs miss.

Dog Soldier

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 08-15-2010, 08:01 AM by Volcano Man.)

(08-13-2010, 10:59 PM)Marquo Wrote: >Is that better?

Ed,

It was okay the first time. I have equanimity about irregularities and cheating; I always learn when my opponent rips me a new one - I can almost always understand my mistake which lead to disaster and rarely have to invoke cheating as the explanation.

I am sure my opponent (as am I) is still trying to understand how a single sturmovik air unit vaporized an entire solitary Hungarian engineer battalion of 136 me. The rating of the air unit is 8-12-18; this hard/soft attack values - is the (18) the number of planes or what? We are using your alt version of Prelude; does this seem correct?

Marquo :)

Well, the greater the number of the planes the more powerful the airstrike will be, yes. But the soft attack is not high enough that it would wipe out an entire unit of 136 men. Perhaps the unit is a motorized unit and was in Travel Mode? If so, then yes, it would certainly have a change of wiping such a small unit out (if they were loaded up in trucks).

edited: clarification

cavalry corps · 08-17-2010, 05:39 PM,

Air in general in Pzc could do with some revision but we only have what we have . I have been playing these games for a long time. I believe that more modifications should be made from player feed back because excuse me if I am wrong most of the play testing is against the AI. that is why I have several campaigns running that have been fully rebalanced.

Back to carpet bombers...For instance for these kind of planes we should be able to set ( edit ) the miss % and radius of missing, maybe also not make them able to attack in vis say 2 or less???

I find the dedicated level bombers and heavy bombers being carpet types ( that is those that can miss but hit every target) is fine and works well. I have also found that the alt values for most planes works well. We all have little issues here and there and in my scn I have tweaked a bit here and there mainly hard attack values .

As I said I base my well played revised versions mainly based on the alt campaign values and these rules work really well. I think pretty much the only axis plane that turns up in most games with this use is the HE111, certainly not a battlefield plane by choice.The JU 88 was much more capable and should not be designated a carpet bomber.

If players like the idea but not the casualties then reduce the availability or the soft attack value or reduce the morale. If you are on the receiving end then do not stack up or if you do make sure you are close to enemy units in the hope the planes may miss.

The other thing in my games is I have revised AA units in a similar way giving them greater abstract range ( typical 4 ) , as if they are deployed over several hexes and greater fire effect, which any sensible comander would do but I did not want to create 100 s more pieces. The values in AA units nin the standard game are well below the value of large units with small fire values especially battalions. So most AA units in the standard game are used for digging in or on the front line, in my games they are more ofen deployed to cover a large part of a division and used for AA cover. These are ways you can improve the game, you have to tweak the values to get what you are looking for.

Cav

Liquid_Sky · 08-24-2010, 10:40 AM,

I found the best use for my 'carpet bombers' in B'45 was to hit the massed Russians assualting Budapest. If I hit them, they lost hundreds due to the increased damaged to size effect. If I missed and hit myself, I was in a bunker with less men, probably losing only a dozen. Was worth the risk everytime.

And he always had to stack up, as to assualt those bunkers, he needed to have numbers, so I could always find a target.

Volcano Man · 08-24-2010, 11:35 AM,

(08-24-2010, 10:40 AM)Liquid_Sky Wrote: I found the best use for my 'carpet bombers' in B'45 was to hit the massed Russians assualting Budapest. If I hit them, they lost hundreds due to the increased damaged to size effect. If I missed and hit myself, I was in a bunker with less men, probably losing only a dozen. Was worth the risk everytime.

And he always had to stack up, as to assualt those bunkers, he needed to have numbers, so I could always find a target.

Hmm, now there is a good idea!

Glenn Saunders · 08-25-2010, 08:46 AM,

> excuse me if I am wrong most of the play testing is against the AI.

Actually it is done both against the AI and with one person playing HTH.

We've tried to do a little PBEM - Ricky and I tested one scn a number of times because we were trying to get the game feel correct. I had tow other test a longer scn but one without a lot of units. The play started off well - one turn or half a turn every day but it petered out to the point where I haven't heard from one of the parties for a month now.

I understand life comes first but I am also not prepared to attempt to do real HTH PBEM on all scns multiple times to get the best baseline, especially considering the number of testers and different skill levels we have and the effect that some optional rules may have on the game.

So we do what we can - and release a good quality game, well researched with historically laid out scns.

Glenn