Help with Assault on Wielke Dzial

Ozgur Budak · (This post was last modified: 09-24-2010, 07:43 PM by Ozgur Budak.)

I am not good with numbers too. But you can make historical comparisons. What is the chance of a PzIIIE against a KV1? Probably very slim even with a flank shot. Wehrmacht developed long barreled models which have at least 80-100 penetration values to be able to destroy monsters such as KV1. It could be just me but thinking about numbers too much seems to get the most of the fun of a wargame. Instead I prefer focusing on the historical knowledge and the tactics that really work on the field. That may take some time though.

(09-24-2010, 12:03 PM)GerryM Wrote: Hello:
Problem is I don't understand the numbers. Is it as simple as you need a Penetration value greater than the Armor value to have a chance to kill the AFV from the side?
I would have the same problem looking at "Heavy Tanks at Rossienie" where the PzKw III E only have a Penetration of 40 and the KV-1s have an Armor rating of 70.
Thanks,
Gerry

TheBigRedOne · (This post was last modified: 09-24-2010, 11:26 PM by TheBigRedOne.)

(09-24-2010, 09:13 AM)Mad_Dog Wrote: I don't know of any charts, but comparing the armour and penetration values is a good way to start. Just open up different scenarios without Fog of war on, and compare the different vehicles and guns. If you wanted to make a chart, I'm sure others on the board would appreciate having it as a reference. ;)

I think this is a good way to start as well. I've sat down and read though the user's manual to get a handle on the effectiveness of fire, but it gets very complicated very quickly with many variables that have to be taken into account for the final calculation. I'm not sure sure it really matters. Ozgur is correct, use what you know historically and ask yourself if it makes sense. If it doesn't, chances are you won't be able to take out the vehicle you're aiming at.

That said, if the PEN value is much lower than the value of the armor, you're going to have to get very lucky in order to do any damage, and, as was stated, it's going to have to be a flank or rear shot.

GerryM · 09-24-2010, 11:59 PM,

Hello:

I appreciate what ye are saying. In terms of tactics then, what can those PzKw III Es do against the KV-1s? Assuming running is not an option. Do they try to swarm the KV-1 like the Shermans did with the Tigers? (I think this is how they combated the Tigers to get side/rear shots?).

Any tips appreciated.

Gerry

TheBigRedOne · 09-25-2010, 03:04 AM,

(09-22-2010, 12:07 PM)GerryM Wrote: Hello All:

I need some advice on how to win this scenario with the Russians. The Germans have 3 x Flammpanzers B2(f). The only Guns I have are the 76mm Field Gun M27 (which fires 76mm DF - what is that??) and 45mm AT Gun M37.

How do you figure out from the data if these can hurt the Flammpanzers?

Thanks,

Gerry

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Russians at this point in the war were not up to handling the German onslaught. They had out-dated guns (as you are experiencing), and were typically over matched in most aspects. The scenario design for AoTR also didn't necessarily take balance into account as much as current games do. This scenario may be, for all intents and purposes, un-winnable for the Russians, just as the situation really existed for them back in 1941. I've never played it, but here's the PBEM log for the scenario. All German wins except for one draw.

https://www.theblitz.club/scenarios/Squa...&ladder=10

I think this is the 76mm field gun you are referring to.

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/put...m_info.htm

As you can see, that gun is WWI vintage. It might be effective against the infantry in the clear, but it's not going to touch the armor, for the most part.

Ozgur Budak · 09-25-2010, 05:10 AM,

Rosienne scenario is notorius for its difficulty as germans. It is an inbalanced scenario specifically aims solo game. If I am not wrong Laz and Frank edited pbem versions of those scenarios. You can find them at TFE4.

As tactics I would be strongly against attacking KV1 with PzIIIEs. Even flank shots are doubtful and KV1's gun can easily penetrate PzIIIE's armor. Said this, as far as I remember I won that scenario some time ago by avoiding tank vs tank clash against kv1. Instead I engaged the T26s and russian infantry. Without their support KV1s had to charge alone and they fell victim to my infantry's satchel charges and flamethrowers.

(09-24-2010, 11:59 PM)GerryM Wrote: Hello:

I appreciate what ye are saying. In terms of tactics then, what can those PzKw III Es do against the KV-1s? Assuming running is not an option. Do they try to swarm the KV-1 like the Shermans did with the Tigers? (I think this is how they combated the Tigers to get side/rear shots?).

Any tips appreciated.

Gerry

TheBigRedOne · 09-25-2010, 05:54 AM,

Just for grins I ran through the Assault on Wielke Dzial scenario, playing as the defending Russians. I took a major loss, which pretty much tells you that against a human being you're going to get crushed. In the couple of years I've playtested scenarios, I could count on one hand how many times I've lost to the AI while I was playing the defensive side.

The Germans have a huge, huge, HUGE amount of artillery available to them on each and every turn. The Russians don't have a ton of leaders, so once units get pinned, they stay that way. Once the Germans had their tanks in my trench, it was all over. I had nothing to stop them. I only managed to take out one of them with the AT gun, and only because the AI played foolishly.

Realistically, this game is pretty much a non-winner for the Russians.

Unless you're Oz.

:bow:

GerryM · 09-25-2010, 06:03 AM,

Thanks for doing that. And to both of you for the continued help. It does seem futile. Did I read somewhere that RV has more balanced scenarios?
Thanks,
Gerry

Ozgur Budak · 09-25-2010, 06:22 AM,

I designed most of it as pbem scenarios without going out of the solo range. But better fellow gamers evaluate them.

(09-25-2010, 06:03 AM)GerryM Wrote: Thanks for doing that. And to both of you for the continued help. It does seem futile. Did I read somewhere that RV has more balanced scenarios?
Thanks,
Gerry

Mad_Dog · 09-25-2010, 11:15 AM,

RV is fantastic Gerry, highly reccomended. I like what Oz said about applying using your own knowledge of the vehicles and weapons to determine what will work. I don't often use the numerical values myself since I have a pretty good base of knowledge that I can work from to determine how different weapons stack up against each other. I don't know how much knowledge you have, but if you are new to it, an easy, free way to learn a lot would be on Wikipedia, there is a lot of good information there.