Low Ammo OOB

[Cross]

I’m wondering if there would be any interest in a ‘Low Ammo OOB’?

This OOB would be identical in every way to the original, except would reduce ammo load-outs for infantry by say 40 or 50%

The purpose or repercussions of this OOB would be:

• Cause players to think about and plan for ammo supply
• Bring more realism onto the battlefield
• Reduce the amount of z-fire
• Bring infantry ammo more inline with artillery load-outs
• For longer battles, players would buy more ammo supply units
• Useful for short battles, or battles where you want ammo to be an issue
• May make PBEM campaigns less decisive

Different possible ways to lower ammo:

A. Lower existing load-outs by percentage (wouldn’t fix existing errors/inconsistencies)
B. Make load-outs lower according to what nations carried historically
C. Give every nation the same load-out (fair, but predictable)

With B or C, different weapon types could be given higher or lower load-outs for historic levels or to reflect how some weapon types would run out sooner.

Questions:

Would you use a low ammo OOB if it was created?

What percentage should infantry ammo be lowered to?

Which approach would you use, A, B, or C?

[keepitloki]

It would definitely change the game.
I would try it out, I think it would be an interesting challenge.
Its hard to say what it should be lowered to. And should it be lowered more or less for different weapons? Like unit LMGs would probably have less ammo than other small arms right?
I would say B would be my natural choice for the low ammo OOBs.
I would also say that this will probably be argued to death, and everyone has different ideas about levels of realism, none of which can be genuinely replicated in a game.
I like the idea of the more in depth management necessary for organising a game with low ammo OOBs + ammo supply.

[jadpanther]

I think this would be a great idea. If it is possible I would certainly use it.

Jad

[Walrus]

I would give it a go. I enjoy the ammo limits for arty and when they turn up in pre-made scenarios.
As to what level, percentage etc to change it to...can of worms.
Good luck!

[Cross]

The ammo levels are certainly a can of worms. I wouldn't want to go with zealously realistic levels, because some units, like the Soviet DP LMG, only carried about 282-329 rounds; which would probably translate to only 19-22 SP ammo units!

I'm leaning towards mixing realism with fairness and playability, while using a consistent approach to assign levels. I haven't figured out exactly how to do that yet, but I have a couple of spreadsheets started and I'm looking at possibilities.

I have also taken a look at SP:WaW Enhanced. Those guys lowered the ammo levels significantly.

It looks like rifles should be around the 50-60 level. Most are currently set at 80, some 90.

One thing I have discovered, is that the current ammo situation is far more unrealistic and inconsistent than I imagined. I doubt most of the infantry ammo loads have been seriously looked at since SPI.


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[Weasel]

I am playing a lot of CM right now, and your infantry and MGs run out of ammo very quickly. On average your grunts have about 35 shots and your MGs about 70. Just putting down a base of fire on a hotel while your grunts move to assault can make your troops spectators for the rest of the game. While frustrating I like it very much.

It would get rid of the Z fire monster that is for sure.

[Cross]

I’ve been looking at a couple of other games and what they’ve done with ammo levels.
If anyone has any data or spreadsheets showing any Infantry or MG ammo levels for other games, I’d be interested to see them.

As for CM, I would have thought MGs would get less ammo than rifles! Or do the MGs use up the ammo at a faster rate? (It’s been many years since I’ve played CM).

In SPWW2, MG ammo is usually the same as rifles; which is one of the things that needs to be adjusted. MGs obviously burn up far more ammo than rifles and should usually run out of ammo first; unless they have ammo supply nearby.

Lower ammo load-outs wouldn’t get rid of the z-fire monster, and I wouldn’t want to, but lower ammo limits should limit the monster, making players think more logistically before firing off tons of z-fire ammo with reckless abandon , or make them pay for additional ammo supply.



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[Weasel]

MGs use up ammo very quickly as each burst counts as 2 or 3 shots.

[Greybeard]

I'm no super historian here, but I've read a few books here and there.. I know that in WW2 at the june 6th invasion.. US paratroops each carried a minumum of 200 belted MG rounds, 80 rounds (10 clips) for their M1-Garand's and 4 HE grenades and 2 smoke grenades.. it was up to the trooper if he wished to carry more - often choosing to carry 160 rounds for the Garrands.... the belted MG rounds could be separated to reload M1 clips, BAR's.. whatever used 30-06 fodder.. or supply the company MG squad with ammo..

so 12 guys in a squad =
2400 rounds of belted ammo
480 rounds of clipped ammo
48 HE grenades
12 smoke grenades

some squads had their troops carry clipped BAR ammo instead of belted ammo.. 200 rounds per man to supply 2 BAR's..

Not sure how much ammo was allocated by other countries as a normal load out.. but the above ammo load would equate to alot of shootin' and scootin' for a single squad of US troopers..

maybe an ammo load of 80 isn't so nuts.. 1 'shot' by 12 guys = 12 rounds fired.. so 960 rounds of ammo for an entire squad to use for their initial load out.. not outside the realm I think..

Greybeard

[Cross]

Hi Greybeard,

I have a good source that US Paratroops were originally going to drop on June 6th carrying even more rounds than you have suggested:

Per weapon/man:

Rifle: 145
Garand: 136
Carbine: 175
Thompson: 300
M1919 Browning LMG: 1250 (on 2 men)

50% of the men in each coy were also supposed to carry one 250 round belt.
US Paratroops didn’t start using BARs until Dec 1944, apparently.

The document also goes into mortar rounds, rockets and grenades, and says this was the maximum load they could carry away from the field. On the day, I’m not sure if they managed to climb inside the aircraft with this lot.

Compare the above list to US Army load-outs:

Rifle: 100
Garand: 80
Carbine: 45
Thompson: 180
BAR: 640

And USMC:

Rifle: 100
Garand: 80
Carbine: 75
Thompson: 180
BAR: 500

I think the June 6th load-outs, whatever they ended up being, were an extraordinary circumstance, perhaps better replicated in SP by a scenario with special ammo allotments; as it wasn’t a typical US Paratroop ammo load-out. And the scenario better change the US Para movement allowance from 6 to 4 ;)

I agree that in some cases an infantry SP ammo load of 80 is warranted. In SP, 1 SP ammo unit equals 1 rifle round (times the number of rifles in the squad).

The US rifle load was 100,
The Germans carried 60 rounds per rifle
The British 50 rounds per rifle
The Russians 30 to 60 per rifle

I’ve read that the Soviets were supposed to get 60 but it was more often 30. I’ve also read that they could get 30 and 2 grenades or 60 and 1 grenade. Knowing the Soviet army, the reality was probably inconsistent.

For realistic Rifle ammo in SP we might allocate:

US: 100
German: 60
British: 50
Russian: 45
Generic or Average: 55