The 12th SS and Paul Hardcastle

Crossroads · (This post was last modified: 11-10-2010, 06:19 PM by Crossroads.)

I was just re-reading Beevor's Normandy book and I thought I would post here for suggestions for good books covering the battles especially between the Canadians and the 12th SS, the Children's Division.

Children's division, as they were enlisted from boys born in 1926, average age of a soldier was thus 18. But then I thought about it this:

"In World War II the average age of the combat soldier was 26
In Vietnam he was 19"

(19, by Paul Hardcastle)

Obviously, a child sent to Vietnam was raised in a democracy, not under a constant propaganda of racial superiority and s**t like that. And not a child anymore, as he was 18 or older...

We still have a draft system in place in finland. Once 18, you need to visit the draft board and let them know whether you want to enlist now, or whether you for an example want to finish your studies first. Previously, it was possible to enlist already at the age of 17, but that was removed as Finland acknowledged the international law for not using children as soldiers. We laughed at that law change at the time. When you are young, 17 year olds seem to be quite mature already, right?

But the 12th SS child were all recruited at the age of 17...

I was 20 when I did my service, had some 17 year old kids at the time in my squad as well. At times, it was impossible to tell between 17 or 27 year olds... At other times they appeared clearly a lot more childish than say the "much" more mature 20 year olds. My conclusion from the performance point of view alone, however, was that the 17 year old kids mixed well with the older ones.

Still, looking back now, some 25 years later, I guess I would draw the line at the 20 years of age that I was at the time, for a combat soldier...

I am of course speaking as a civilian who has not needed to serve in any real confrontation.

So, what are your thoughts on Children's Divisions of then and now?

Gasbag · 11-11-2010, 10:42 PM,

If you're looking for good books try Conduct Unbecoming by Howard Margolian. This book covers the murders of 150 Canadian soldiers by the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" in Normandy. One of those Canadians murdered was a guy from my hometown of Cornwall Ontario. Hubert Meyer's 12th SS divisional history is useful as well but it should be taken with a grain of salt (like a lot of memoirs/histories written by former German Army/SS veterans) because it ignores this incident completely. Steel Inferno by Michael Reynolds has some interesting sections on battles between the Canadians & the 12th SS. No Holding Back by Brian A. Reid covers Operation Totalize & is a must read (IMHO) for anyone interested in the Canadians in Normandy. It also has a interesting appendix in which the author provides a very sound case for crediting the Canadians with the destruction of panzer ace Michael Wittmann.

Hopefully these books are along the lines of what you're looking for...:)

Crossroads · (This post was last modified: 11-12-2010, 05:13 AM by Crossroads.)

Thanks Gasbag, I believe it is time to send some hard earned euros towards the Amazon bookshelves again... I will start with the two latter books. But not to forget the darker side of human beings, I will dig up the first one at some point as well.

EDIT: Changed my mind and opted for the first and second books you mentioned. Unfortunately, only (second hand!) copy of Conduct Unbecoming available at Amazon.co.uk, and that at 130GBP...

Gasbag · 11-12-2010, 10:45 PM,

(11-12-2010, 04:52 AM)Sgt K. Kat Wrote: Thanks Gasbag, I believe it is time to send some hard earned euros towards the Amazon bookshelves again... I will start with the two latter books. But not to forget the darker side of human beings, I will dig up the first one at some point as well.

EDIT: Changed my mind and opted for the first and second books you mentioned. Unfortunately, only (second hand!) copy of Conduct Unbecoming available at Amazon.co.uk, and that at 130GBP...

No problem. :) Conduct Unbecoming for 130GBP...:jaw: It really amazes me when I see what some people are willing to shell out for a book. I sold a hardcover copy of Patrick Agte's Michael Wittmann...Leibstandarte a few years ago for 250 US on Ebay. The joke was on the buyer because the book was reprinted by Stackpole a few months later. Big Grin

The book wasn't all that good either; sloppy editing & poor quality frequently reproduced photos.

Crossroads · 11-13-2010, 02:39 AM,

Lucky you :)

For us mere mortals, luckily the public libraries are there, and of course Amazon.

It would be great there would be a universal standard for e-books, it would be much more fun to be able to start reading immediately, instead of waiting for a week or so.

Steel Inferno and while at it To The Bitter End are heading this way...

Lowlander · 11-13-2010, 06:40 AM,

Would recommend Blood and Honor: the history of the 12th SS panzer division " hitler youth " 1943-1945 by Craig W H Luther.

Amazon has very good second-hand copies at a reasonable price !!!.
Maybe it's time to cash in on my investment.

Bought this at least 20yrs ago as I was into ww2 1/285 or 1/300 scale tabletop actions.
Still have the complete division in miniture along with historical support units I.E nebelwerfer, heavy artillery, tiger and flak formations.
All accurately researched with info gleaned from this book, around 300 to 400 based elements including lots of Italian trucks.
Will have to sell these shortly as we want to downsize but the property markets put that on hold for now.

Gasbag · 11-14-2010, 03:30 AM,

(11-13-2010, 02:39 AM)Sgt K. Kat Wrote: Lucky you :)

For us mere mortals, luckily the public libraries are there, and of course Amazon.

It would be great there would be a universal standard for e-books, it would be much more fun to be able to start reading immediately, instead of waiting for a week or so.

Steel Inferno and while at it To The Bitter End are heading this way...

Yeah I was going to suggest trying your public library for Conduct Unbecoming. I did a search of my library's catalogue & found that they have 9 copies. I may borrow & re-read the book after I get through Alamein by Jon Latimer. Amazon's pretty good & in Canada we have Chapters/Indigo too. I don't order from them as much as Amazon though.

Never read To The Bitter End. I found Steel Inferno a little dry in places.

Crossroads · (This post was last modified: 11-22-2010, 09:04 PM by Crossroads.)

I finished reading the Steel Inferno. General Reynold did a great job in giving an unbiased soldier's view of the hard fighting at Normandy. I quite enjoyed the book.

What I especially liked was the way he combined strategic, operational and at times even tactical analysis with quotes from the both sides. If it not would have been for the utterly useless maps in the book, and perhaps a rushed feeling towards the end, I actually would have considered giving it a five star ranking. As it is, it is a four star book IMHO.

To The Bitter End seems to be much more unfinished object of work. I have not really got into reading it, unlike the Steel Inferno, which I basically read non-stop over the weekend.

Gasbag · 11-23-2010, 04:33 AM,

(11-22-2010, 09:03 PM)Sgt K. Kat Wrote: I finished reading the Steel Inferno. General Reynold did a great job in giving an unbiased soldier's view of the hard fighting at Normandy. I quite enjoyed the book.

What I especially liked was the way he combined strategic, operational and at times even tactical analysis with quotes from the both sides. If it not would have been for the utterly useless maps in the book, and perhaps a rushed feeling towards the end, I actually would have considered giving it a five star ranking. As it is, it is a four star book IMHO.

To The Bitter End seems to be much more unfinished object of work. I have not really got into reading it, unlike the Steel Inferno, which I basically read non-stop over the weekend.

The problem that I have with Reynolds' writing is that in some of his books he lifts whole sections almost verbatim from his previous book(s). He did it with The Devil's Adjutant & Men of Steel. I know that there's no law against doing that but it seems to be a rather lazy (IMHO) way of writing a book. It also cheats the reader in a way; you pay for a book that's basically a rehash of the author's previous work.

On another note there used to be a really good website on the 12th SS but unfortunately it appears to be gone now. Last time I went I couldn't find it...:(

Crossroads · 11-24-2010, 05:05 AM,

I had not read any of his other books so it was not an issue for me :)

I agree that sounds like a bit of an iffy thing to do, especially when selling the new books at full price.

The interesting part I wish he would have spent a bit more time was the question he set up in the beginning: what was it that made the LAH and HJ such a formidable battle units? HJ was a green unit when entering the Normandy campaing, and LAH was in practice almost destroyed a couple of times prior to Normandy, in addition of providing the nucleus of officers and NCOs to HJ.

He could have spent a bit more answering and analysing that question, although he did provide the reasoning to some extent.

As I said, a good book, that with a little more work could have been a great book IMHO.