F14. Routed unit stuck in Rail Mode

Mafooo · 12-07-2010, 12:09 PM,

Hi,

I had a disrupted unit which was in rail mode attacked and Broken. Unit retreated in Rail Mode.

I have since railed that unit to the rear to recuperate, but because he is Broken he can't get out of Rail Mode (says "broken units cannot use rail mode"). Is there a way around this or is this Broken unit stuck in Rail Mode for perpetuity. Thanks.

raizer · 12-07-2010, 01:21 PM,

LOL i have one of those stuck in rail mode in K42...nothing you can do...just stop moving it, itll come down off fatigue and recover hehe

Volcano Man · 12-07-2010, 01:33 PM,

Interesting. I will pass this along so that it can get fixed (broken units should be able to exit RM but not enter it). Thanks.

Dog Soldier · 12-07-2010, 04:25 PM,

Hold On Ed. Maybe you are jumping the wrong way.

I does seem logical that unit that becomes broken from enemy fire while loaded in rail mode has also suffered some damage to the rail lift capacity for that side, at least temporarily, as simulated by having the unit "stuck" in rail mode.

One could even argue for the permanent loss of a single increment of rail capacity for the rest of the scenario in this situation even though the combat unit could recover and be sent back to the front to represent the loss of rolling stock not be recovered in the time frame of the game. Trains and rail cars do not grow on trees.

Dog Soldier

Volcano Man · 12-07-2010, 05:15 PM,

Well sure, it can be justified somehow, but IMO it is a mechanical thing -- if you try to exit rail mode, you should be able to do so. Exiting rail mode and getting an error that "Broken Units cannot use rail mode", therefore keeping them in rail mode stasis occupying rail slots, doesn't make sense to me.

Dog Soldier · (This post was last modified: 12-08-2010, 04:04 AM by Dog Soldier.)

(12-07-2010, 05:15 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: Exiting rail mode and getting an error that "Broken Units cannot use rail mode", therefore keeping them in rail mode stasis occupying rail slots, doesn't make sense to me.

If I understand you correctly, enough firepower or assaults can be made on a unit in rail mode to cause severe casualties and break the unit, but have no effect on damaging the train(s) carrying the unit affecting rail capacity even temporarily for a time determined by the time needed to recover the unit to at least a disrupted state say 5- 10 turns, 1/2 to a full day.

Must be really tough trains, or there is just an abundance of excess trains deployed idle in WW1, in the combat zone, behind the lines of a major action not carrying supplies and other cargo which can maintain capacity dedicated to carrying units. I thought rail capacity to move units was limited since it took weeks to assemble the troops before the campaign began. Maybe, German RR were that efficient. Other combatants certainly were not and the game in this situation can not make that distinction.

Sounds to me like the "mechanic" works as it should.

Dog Soldier

**Ricky B** · (This post was last modified: 12-08-2010, 04:42 AM by Ricky B.)

Took me awhile to follow you on this one, Dog Soldier, but I think I got you now. You are saying that having the unit "stuck" in rail mode is a way to represent the loss of rolling stock for transporting other units right, by tying up that point of capacity? I, and I think VM, took it that you were justifying the inability of the broken unit to exit the train as valid because the train suffered damage, so I had this image of the train smashed to pieces and the unit on the train still able to move about the countryside on tracks, at will, but can't leave as their doors were blasted shut. Reminded me of a Sci Fi story or something - the wandering black train, permanently burning from end to end with the terrified souls of the 1.SS.Inf.Bn stuck on it for eternity, preventing other units from boarding the train but able to go back and haunt Hitler's mind forever, as long as train tracks led there.

Anyway, if the other is what you are thinking, then it could explain the loss of ability to move one other unit - but since this broken unit can still move around it ruins the "reasoning" I think, and would agree with VM that much better to allow the unit off the train, somewhere short of a permanent H*ll :).

Rick

Dog Soldier · (This post was last modified: 12-08-2010, 06:27 AM by Dog Soldier.)

Rick,
I think you are now getting what I am proposing here now. The other responses were too terse for me to see what it was you and Ed were thinking. Also, broken units do not remain broken forever, condemned to "ride the rails of hell" etc. They only need to become disrupted status and they can "detrain". Really just a timing mechanism for returning rail capacity than an actual getting on or off an actual train.

I am thinking solely about a temporary rail capacity reduction. Most broken units can recover from broken to disrupted status if in command of their HQ in a full game day's time. They are still not ready for duty necessarily, but it does make a nice delay in rail capacity.

Another issue simulated here is the broken unit would be restricted from moving in rail mode towards the enemy. Thus if the unit is between other units in rail mode on the rail line, it could cause a temporary congestion on the rail line for other units in rail mode that would need to be sorted out. Seems reasonable considering the damage inflicted to break a unit.

Now the point you make about being able to move about on the rail line after being broken in rail mode is a problem. Really the unit should not. With the way the game engine works I can not see a solution to that being weird as you point out. One could rationalize the unit is being evacuated from the area, the same as bulldozing wrecked tanks off a road to clear the road for the column. Not too bad then from that perspective is it?

I just thought most commanders would try hard not to get units in rail mode too close to the front. They are very vulnerable. A penalty of a broken unit, lost rail capacity and possible blockage by such a unit on the rail line seems three good reasons to out weigh the one issue of the unit still being able to move about on the rails after being broken. Three to one is not really that bad, is it?

Dog Soldier

**Ricky B** · 12-08-2010, 06:50 AM,

Understood on things like rallying Brian - I was just letting imagination run with the visual that I had, the train of the d&amned, never to get off - I know really unless the units were F morale they would eventually rally enough to get off the train, but it didn't fit what I had running down the tracks of my mind.

Rick

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 12-08-2010, 09:05 AM by Volcano Man.)

(12-08-2010, 04:04 AM)Dog Soldier Wrote:
(12-07-2010, 05:15 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: Exiting rail mode and getting an error that "Broken Units cannot use rail mode", therefore keeping them in rail mode stasis occupying rail slots, doesn't make sense to me.

If I understand you correctly, enough firepower or assaults can be made on a unit in rail mode to cause severe casualties and break the unit, but have no effect on damaging the train(s) carrying the unit affecting rail capacity even temporarily for a time determined by the time needed to recover the unit to at least a disrupted state say 5- 10 turns, 1/2 to a full day.

Must be really tough trains, or there is just an abundance of excess trains deployed idle in WW1, in the combat zone, behind the lines of a major action not carrying supplies and other cargo which can maintain capacity dedicated to carrying units. I thought rail capacity to move units was limited since it took weeks to assemble the troops before the campaign began. Maybe, German RR were that efficient. Other combatants certainly were not and the game in this situation can not make that distinction.

Sounds to me like the "mechanic" works as it should.

I appreciate the descriptions for justifying it but it just doesn't pass logical rule mechanic test with me, at least not as it currently behaves. This isn't working the way it currently does because someone thought "lets prevent Broken Units from exiting rail mode because that would represent destroyed trains." If that were the case, then broken units on rail would not be allowed to move by rail at all and it would block the tracks. The other problem we have is that if the user moves the Broken unit ever turn and keeps it from resting (why they would do that, I don't know) then it will result in the unit infinitely stuck in rail mode. If the Broken rail mode unit was stuck in place then it would make *some* sense, but as it currently function it does not.

Now whether or not it should remain in place but with a small change (at the very least to the error message) is one thing, but allowing said Broken unit to move by rail while preventing it to exit doesn't quite make sense in its current behavior. Either way, one change or the other is in order - I will keep what you said in mind, maybe the Broken units can become static, tie up the rail capacity and allow for said unit's easy destruction.

Of course the other problem here is that a unit might be on the train and have Max Fatigue, then suffer one man lost and possibly become Broken, at which points we assume the train apparently derails and explodes and sticks the unit in place for a day or more and blocks the track -- that doesn't quite make sense to me either. :(