Low cost of german arty

[jadpanther]

I have a question for the designers of winspww2.........why is german arty so cheap. A self propelled hummel which has a 150mm gun in 1944 at 75 training costs 35pts, a wespe is even less with 105mm gun. These weapons are also very difficult to suppress. Also you have the german halftracks with their 81mm motars and 90rounds of ammo. Were these weapons so plentiful that they can be this cheap in the game? As a russian player, I find myself in even battles without making all kinds of rules to limit my german opponents constantly out gunned in the arty department by better high quality guns which cannot easily be suppressed or knocked out. And unless I keep my guns running constantly they are usually knocked out in the first 30 turns. My understanding of history was that the germans were almost always outnumbered in the later years on the eastern front. Why is this not reflected in their having a higher cost for their artillery? Is there a reason the game was designed this way, maybe you could explain it to a simple guy like myself.

Thanks to whoever answers this question and explains this to me.

Jadpanther

[Greybeard]

Hello JP,

yep - I think we all find that at one time or another in the game that 10% of points will buy a ton of artillery.. much more than a meeting engagement would normally have available.. I use meeting engagement because IIRC, these are the vast majority of the games we play here.. where it would probably be more appropriate to be playing assault/defend or attack/delay types of games..

anyway - I digress..

A solution I've found that seems to work well:

allow only the artillery that come integrated in a full company purchase (armor or infantry).. most of the time this would result is a company having 1 or 2 light to medium mortar units available..

once the purchase reaches a battalion level.. (appx 3 companies).. then the appropriate battalion support/heavy weapons company can be purchased.. which would usually include MG's and an artillery battery (roughly 6 gun tubes, which is not the same as units) and sometimes a FO.

off-map heavy artillery probably ought to be only in the game with an assault/defend situation.. and appx 5%-10% for each player for off-map would be right.. in addition to integral company artillery (just like we set up the team game you and I are involved in right now)..

Once the game reaches 3+ battalions, then regimental artillery can be added.. in the form of on-map light/medium artillery, rocket launchers.. etc, and off-map heavy artillery.. at roughly 1 artillery battery per battalion perhaps. These ought not to be controlled by point allowance, but simply the fact that the game has reached proportions where regimental or divisional artillery assets are appropriate..

things like SP guns/CS tanks were intended as direct LOS fire support of troops.. and probably ought to appear in numbers of appx 1 section of 2 tanks for one infantry company.. and up to about 4-6 tanks per battalion.. typically SP guns were not used as indirect fire artillery.. including the ability in the game to use these for 'z' firing to augment other artillery & etc..

Setting things up like this may give the more historical accuracy to the artillery issue you mention

Regards,
Greybeard

[shortreengage]

Hello JP,

yep - I think we all find that at one time or another in the game that 10% of points will buy a ton of artillery.. much more than a meeting engagement would normally have available.. I use meeting engagement because IIRC, these are the vast majority of the games we play here.. where it would probably be more appropriate to be playing assault/defend or attack/delay types of games..

anyway - I digress..

A solution I've found that seems to work well:

allow only the artillery that come integrated in a full company purchase (armor or infantry).. most of the time this would result is a company having 1 or 2 light to medium mortar units available..

once the purchase reaches a battalion level.. (appx 3 companies).. then the appropriate battalion support/heavy weapons company can be purchased.. which would usually include MG's and an artillery battery (roughly 6 gun tubes, which is not the same as units) and sometimes a FO.

off-map heavy artillery probably ought to be only in the game with an assault/defend situation.. and appx 5%-10% for each player for off-map would be right.. in addition to integral company artillery (just like we set up the team game you and I are involved in right now)..

Once the game reaches 3+ battalions, then regimental artillery can be added.. in the form of on-map light/medium artillery, rocket launchers.. etc, and off-map heavy artillery.. at roughly 1 artillery battery per battalion perhaps. These ought not to be controlled by point allowance, but simply the fact that the game has reached proportions where regimental or divisional artillery assets are appropriate..

things like SP guns/CS tanks were intended as direct LOS fire support of troops.. and probably ought to appear in numbers of appx 1 section of 2 tanks for one infantry company.. and up to about 4-6 tanks per battalion.. typically SP guns were not used as indirect fire artillery.. including the ability in the game to use these for 'z' firing to augment other artillery & etc..

Setting things up like this may give the more historical accuracy to the artillery issue you mention

Regards,
Greybeard

Hi Greybeard, Hi Jad,
That is not a bad idea. But. Some armies rely on artillery more than others. In most western tactical methods FIRES (arty/mortars) support MANEUVER ( tanks/inf). In Soviet style armies MANEUVER supports FIRES. Soviet Arty is pooled and formed into groups for specific tasks. It is not uncommon for the lead Battalion to have upwards of 6 Battalions firing in support, though some of this would be in the form of Counter-Battery fires. It depends on the mission and if the unit is conducting main or supporting attack. Guidelines are good but need to be realistic. One of the things I hate is when my oppo spams cheap mortars. Where did all these mortars come from? I know WW2 Soviets and US had Mortar BNs but come on.

[Greybeard]

Hello Paul,

yes, I am learning that too much artillery can be game stopping.. I've been one to spam mortars also.. but in future games I'm going to suggest more realistic artillery limits.. and ammo limits if any allowed at all..

currently have MBT game running, and both of us have far too much artillery.. is a large point game, and 10% for each of us allowed a huge number of cheap artillery units.. we each bought a some big guns.. but have multiple pages of artillery comprised of 81mm mortars.. ammo supply is limited to 1 ammo vehicle per 4 artillery units.. but..
game is to a point where we can go cook a nice dinner when the artillery starts landing.. and can't see all the artillery fire replay because the replay buffer fills up..

when new turn begins.. so much artillery has fallen, that most of our units are pinned with a substantial amount of supression.. I don't know about my opponent, but I am finding it very difficult to make any fwd progress because so many units remain suppressed/pinned even after rally attempts.. game is turning into a ww1 style stalemate..

most of my recent games with JP don't allow ammo resupply units.. even so, when some mortar teams come with 2-3 tubes, and 40+ rounds of ammo for each tube.. when managed right we can keep up the artillery fire almost continously simply from the number of guns we have available..

still thinking about possible ways to help improve the game play..

pretty sure that CAMO didn't intend to have PBEM players get into a game and allow how-ever much artillery one could purchase with 10% or whatever artillery point allowance.. I think that they thought PBEM players would be more inclined to structure things somewhat historically correct.. or after experience make adjustments where ME's wouldn't end up in artillery feasting on grunts and slowing both sides to a ww1 standstill..

Greybeard

[Machean]

Yes I definately agree that the artillery availability is too easy in winspww2. I have a solution that works for me and that is stick to as close as historical formations and realism and you will get a realistic amount of arty for your forceses. For meeting engagements onboard arty should only be allowed and for advance and assault offboard can be purchased. There is so mutch good information on the web now regarding ww2 army's and their organisation that I hardly have any trouble in building my forceses around them. Another option is also limit arty to only what comes with the organisation you buy as mentioned above. Arty and recon is definately 2 hot topics to discuss before setting a battle up, they are definately the top factor in how a battle will end. 5% arty limit is also good for meeting engaments.

[Cross]

Hi Jadpanther

I think you are partially right about the values.

When we compare regular artillery/mortars there’s really no difference:

German
7.5cm How. AMMO: 32 HE, 8 HEAT, costs 23 pts (at 70 experience)
Soviet
76.2mm How. AMMO: 40 HE, costs 22 pts (at 70 experience) (unit 352)

German
10.5cm How. AMMO: 24 HE, 6 HEAT, costs 25 pts (at 70 experience)
Soviet
107mm How. AMMO: 30 HE, 5 HEAT, costs 27 pts (at 70 experience) (unit 452)

German
8cm Mortar AMMO: 2x40 (80) HE, costs 25 pts (at 70 experience)
Soviet
82mm Mortar AMMO: 3x40 (120) HE, costs 32 pts (at 70 experience) (unit 434)

German
12cm Mortar AMMO: 2x30 (60) HE, costs 41 pts (at 70 experience)
Soviet
120mm Mortar AMMO: 2x30 (60) HE, costs 40 pts (at 70 experience) (unit 436)

I don’t think the Soviets have any SP-mortars for us to compare. The German halftrack with 8cm mortar has 90 HE and only costs 28 pts (at 70 exp), which is a good deal except for the fact that it only has one tube.
You can buy a Soviet regular mortar unit with 3 tubes and 120 HE rounds for only 4 more pts, and not only do you get an extra 30 rounds of ammo but the 3 tubes allow you to stonk a target 3 times as hard as the halftrack can.

The Germans do have cheaper Self-propelled Artillery. The Soviet KV-II (SP-arty) is expensive, I think because of its heavy armour.

Wespe 10.5cm: 30 HE 2 HEAT costs 31 pts (at 70 exp)
Hummel 15cm: 16 HE 2 HEAT costs 33 pts (at 70 exp)

One solution – if you want to suppress German arty - would be to buy a 82mm mortar unit with 3 tubes and 120 rounds for the same price as his Wespe/Hummel with only 30/16 rounds. Or if you want to KO German arty, buy a 120mm mortar with 2 tubes and 60 ammo for 40 pts.

You could try purchasing Soviet SP-rockets. The BM-8 rockets have the same kill value as the 10.5cm and the BM-13 as the 15cm. The rockets have about the same ammo, are obviously less accurate, but you get 2 ‘tubes’ instead of one. You can get trucks or armoured carriers.
Personally, I would avoid the trucks as too vulnerable, unless you don’t mind the inconvenience of keeping them on the move. The Hummel and Wespe do not have top armour, but the Soviet BM-8-24 (armoured carrier) has top armour, which is important in an artillery dual.

BM-8 Katy (truck) 36 HE cost 23 pts (at 70 exp)
BM-13 Katy (truck) 16 HE cost 23 pts (at 70 exp)
BM-8-24 (armoured carrier) 24 HE cost 31 pts (at 70 exp)

[jadpanther]

Hi Jadpanther

I think you are partially right about the values.

When we compare regular artillery/mortars there’s really no difference:

German
7.5cm How. AMMO: 32 HE, 8 HEAT, costs 23 pts (at 70 experience)
Soviet
76.2mm How. AMMO: 40 HE, costs 22 pts (at 70 experience) (unit 352)

German
10.5cm How. AMMO: 24 HE, 6 HEAT, costs 25 pts (at 70 experience)
Soviet
107mm How. AMMO: 30 HE, 5 HEAT, costs 27 pts (at 70 experience) (unit 452)

German
8cm Mortar AMMO: 2x40 (80) HE, costs 25 pts (at 70 experience)
Soviet
82mm Mortar AMMO: 3x40 (120) HE, costs 32 pts (at 70 experience) (unit 434)

German
12cm Mortar AMMO: 2x30 (60) HE, costs 41 pts (at 70 experience)
Soviet
120mm Mortar AMMO: 2x30 (60) HE, costs 40 pts (at 70 experience) (unit 436)

I don’t think the Soviets have any SP-mortars for us to compare. The German halftrack with 8cm mortar has 90 HE and only costs 28 pts (at 70 exp), which is a good deal except for the fact that it only has one tube.
You can buy a Soviet regular mortar unit with 3 tubes and 120 HE rounds for only 4 more pts, and not only do you get an extra 30 rounds of ammo but the 3 tubes allow you to stonk a target 3 times as hard as the halftrack can.

The Germans do have cheaper Self-propelled Artillery. The Soviet KV-II (SP-arty) is expensive, I think because of its heavy armour.

Wespe 10.5cm: 30 HE 2 HEAT costs 31 pts (at 70 exp)
Hummel 15cm: 16 HE 2 HEAT costs 33 pts (at 70 exp)

One solution – if you want to suppress German arty - would be to buy a 82mm mortar unit with 3 tubes and 120 rounds for the same price as his Wespe/Hummel with only 30/16 rounds. Or if you want to KO German arty, buy a 120mm mortar with 2 tubes and 60 ammo for 40 pts.

You could try purchasing Soviet SP-rockets. The BM-8 rockets have the same kill value as the 10.5cm and the BM-13 as the 15cm. The rockets have about the same ammo, are obviously less accurate, but you get 2 ‘tubes’ instead of one. You can get trucks or armoured carriers.
Personally, I would avoid the trucks as too vulnerable, unless you don’t mind the inconvenience of keeping them on the move. The Hummel and Wespe do not have top armour, but the Soviet BM-8-24 (armoured carrier) has top armour, which is important in an artillery dual.

BM-8 Katy (truck) 36 HE cost 23 pts (at 70 exp)
BM-13 Katy (truck) 16 HE cost 23 pts (at 70 exp)
BM-8-24 (armoured carrier) 24 HE cost 31 pts (at 70 exp)

Hi Cross,

wow....thanks for breaking that down so fast.

Many good points.

When you look at the point values of the weapons they are very close in value. Which I guess the game designers wanted it to be. But when you give even arty values to the german he can load up on Hummels and wespes which are extrmely cheap and give a big bang for the buck. If the russian player tries to buy SP arty he only has the priest to use in the later years and it cost 49 points. I would kill for KVII's in the later year scenarios. They could take a lick and keep on ticking. My Towed arty just does not stand up. And as for rockets, they are so inacurate and their reload rate so low that unless you have many batteries that you can stagger fire it is hard to keep continus fire on the hun. I guess I am just venting frustrations.

I was trying to find an answer without making all kinds of house rules to limit the german arty. Even points is hard for the soviets in the later war years. With all the nice size 0 units all the other nations have and the awesome tanks it just makes it difficult. Somtimes you feel like you have one hand tied behind your back. I don't like to limit my opponents, but I dont see balance in the game if I don't.

Thanks to all for your responses

Jad

[Cross]

If I was being harassed by German SP-arty, I think I would purchase a mix of 82mm and 120mm mortars for counter battery.

The medium mortars will suppress effectively and will still have tons of ammo left long after the Hummels and Wespes are all out.

The heavy mortars also have more ammo than the SP-guns and have a decent chance of damaging or KO the German vehicles.

If the Germans are targeting your mortars, you could use a few armoured halftracks or Bren Gun Carriers to move some around and keep him guessing.
But if you site the mortars on rough ground or in shell holes they'll hold up quite well to the smaller caliber rounds.

[GUNSLNGR]

I guess I'm one of the benefactors of JP's frustrations...

In our current game we had 40000 purchase points and a 10% arty limit w/ ammo resupply allowed. This 10% limit also included mortars or indirect fire support weapons that were organic to companies purchased.

I was astonished at all the SP guns I had available to me as Germany...had how cheap they were! I kept putting the number in the calculator to make sure that 4000 was really 10%!

As far as a GAME tactic...this is great. His towed stuff was quickly found and hit hard. My SP guns could fire and then move, re-arm, fire again. JP was able to get through a screening force with his armor and got into my rear area very quickly...but the SP guns also have a pretty good anti-armor capability - most firing HEAT rounds. I have felt his frustrations as he has ably killed a lot...but I still have more.

I guess the question here is not for GAME tactics but for historical realism - as close as a game can be anyway. The Blitz "standard" seems to be the 10%, but I don't think - for historical purposed - percentages has anything to do with it.

While certainly limits on arty should be suggested by players, I think it may be more important HOW it used. As a GAME tactic, most games involved tubes firing willy-nilly all over the board. You spot a mortar, BANG - you target it. You spot a group of armor in a tree line, BANG - you target it. Artillery, with the exception of close support at the battalion or company level, just wasn't used that way in WW2 - the level of communication just didn't allow for it.

"Meeting Engagement" which is a term I've only really ever seen in SP, but is what most of us play, would have been a disaster if arty fire support was not RIGIDLY controlled by the commander. The targeting of individual tubes of the same unit, by one FO or CO, would not have possible - and very dangerous. You fired that stuff when you were very certain good guys weren't there.

Really heavy stuff, controlled at a Regimental or Divisional level, would be used to soften up and suppress targets prior to an assault - or to slow the advance of advancing enemy. We, most of us, just don't play that way.

As an example in game, let's say an infantry platoon is advancing through some trees to a open field. They are ordered to cross the field to the next tree line, about 200 meters. You also have purchased an FO, but he is nowhere near this platoon and has no eyes on them. As they cross the field, the platoon is hit by a machine gun and supporting infantry in the tree line ahead of them. The take a few hits and are suppressed...Now in real life what would happen? That platoon commander would call up to Btn or his Company HQ and request indirect fire support on that tree line. What would be most immediately available may be the Btn or Coy fire support - maybe mortars, maybe SP mortars, maybe a CS vehicle...whatever. That Btn or Coy HQ, it the vast majority of cases, would simply have been unable to call Regimental or Division artillery assests for a platoon.

What happens in the game...we click on the FO and assign a fire mission from any of a number of purchased arty units. We also may look for an arty unit or indirect fire unit that is in range and z-fire on that area (which is even more unrealistic).

I believe Weasel or Walrus developed a arty rules system that involved purchases and use of arty ploting - based on the number of F0's purchased. I think that goes a pretty good ways to controlling some of the unrestricted use of arty - but maybe not far enough.

A feasible system, with historical accuracy, is probably possible - but it would take some research, time, and effort. Anyone? But, also this is a game - so it may also be possible to add such a degree of historical accuracy, that all fun gets taken out of it.

Just food for thought...

[oldrocky]

I agree that Weasels FOO rule is an advancement in the game RE the use of arty. A battery should be deployed in close proximity and all tubes of the designated battery should be directed on one target. ( I have found it quite effective and use the technique often. The first tube disrupts and pins the target, the second tube routes and the 3rd and 4th destroy ) However, it is my opinion that in a WW2 battle the Company Commander should also be able to call in fire missions and redirect landing shots. In MBT Platoon leaders have this capability which I feel reflects accurately current capabilities/tactics.
As an amateur student of tactics the closer the game comes to realism the more I like it.