Any consensus on F 14?

[Nitram Draw]

I would caution that as the Allies, an immediate withdrawal on turn 1 is probably not the best choice. I feel that it has to be something along the historical lines of making a stand along the front for the first day (in the Ardennes and Charleroi), see what they do an Mons (hold for a day after contact is made if possible) -- essentially a brief resistance and then a retreat. Once engaged and the enemy is bloodied, maneuver your units to get ready for a retreat and then use rear guards at the roads to cover a night retreat. On the next day, you should be doing more of the same and containing the retreat with the rest. Rest the furthest rearward units when able and launch limited counter attacks where the enemy gets too close. Chances are, if you do this, the enemy will be resting his exhausted forces and will not be perusing with as many forces as would otherwise be the case.

It is certainly very tricky though. Everything mentioned here depends on your partner's actions and is more about acting and reacting. I think in some situations the Allies have to be willing to sacrifice some divisions, brigades etc. for the greater good of pulling back to a more manageable situation.

Yes I agree as the French you can't start a general withdraw along the entire front immediately. I find the best way to withdraw is to leapfrog backwards. Tha way your rearguard can get as exhuasted and as disrupted as they want, they fall back behind, even moving at night, the fresh units and rest while the attacker must keep moving and fighting. The French have enough units to do this almost everywhere, the only problem is the left flank. They need to get something more there than the single division that can rail up at the start.

[jonnymacbrown]

"Yes I agree as the French you can't start a general withdraw along the entire front immediately."

That's what I am wondering about. If you stand and fight for any length of time it becomes increasingly difficult to withdraw. An immediate pullout from the Ardennes is undoubtedly best as the roads facilitate it. The line from Givet/Dinant/Namur can also be immediately given up with the crossings held by redoubts.

"I find the best way to withdraw is to leapfrog backwards."

This is great in theory but does it work against a ruthless German attacker? It's actually about a 150 mile retreat to the final stand before Paris. How many wargamers have ever actually done anything like this, moving 700,000 men and 4000 guns to reassemble at some place far to the rear, that wasn't laid out for them, like the aforementioned retreat to Moscow?

[i]"The French have enough units to do this almost everywhere, the only problem is the left flank."

Yes well the left flank's the problem.

"They need to get something more there than the single division that can rail up at the start."[/i]

That's another problem we talked about here. Volcano Man made some changes to slow the German thrust through Tournai down a bit (blown bridges and the like) but there is nothing there except the next to useless 88th Territorials and the British 4th Division won't arrive there until the 25th. A movement in force in that direction might be unstoppable especially with the BEF fixed for 2 days. Jonny

[Nitram Draw]

"Yes I agree as the French you can't start a general withdraw along the entire front immediately."

That's what I am wondering about. If you stand and fight for any length of time it becomes increasingly difficult to withdraw. An immediate pullout from the Ardennes is undoubtedly best as the roads facilitate it. The line from Givet/Dinant/Namur can also be immediately given up with the crossings held by redoubts.

"I find the best way to withdraw is to leapfrog backwards."

This is great in theory but does it work against a ruthless German attacker? It's actually about a 150 mile retreat to the final stand before Paris. How many wargamers have ever actually done anything like this, moving 700,000 men and 4000 guns to reassemble at some place far to the rear, that wasn't laid out for them, like the aforementioned retreat to Moscow?

[i]"The French have enough units to do this almost everywhere, the only problem is the left flank."

Yes well the left flank's the problem.

"They need to get something more there than the single division that can rail up at the start."[/i]

That's another problem we talked about here. Volcano Man made some changes to slow the German thrust through Tournai down a bit (blown bridges and the like) but there is nothing there except the next to useless 88th Territorials and the British 4th Division won't arrive there until the 25th. A movement in force in that direction might be unstoppable especially with the BEF fixed for 2 days. Jonny

The whole key is that the Germans can't chase you any faster than you can run. So you only need a few fresh units to form the second or third lines. plus you can move at night because they are going to rest behind the next line, not assault it.
The whole Northern salient can be given up, there are not a lot of VP's you can expect to hold there but you can extract a lot of troops while delaying the Germans for a few days. You can run in the Ardennes area too. There are good river lines to defend behind. River crossings are HARD in this game.
On the left you can use the British division that come in entrained. You can also rail units from the south up, it takes some time and they may be out of command for a while but all you want to do is slow them down. It takes a long time for the Germans to build up a large enough force to control the left. It can look bad but it's like a big area of vacuum out there. The key is not to panic on the left. Everywhere esle you can hold or perform and organized withdraw.
It's not easy but overall I think it's easier to make a defense than to assault one in this game.

[Volcano Man]

That's another problem we talked about here. Volcano Man made some changes to slow the German thrust through Tournai down a bit (blown bridges and the like) but there is nothing there except the next to useless 88th Territorials and the British 4th Division won't arrive there until the 25th. A movement in force in that direction might be unstoppable especially with the BEF fixed for 2 days.

Right. Well, FWIW, I still don't see the whole BEF bypass as a great tactic. As you said, I did make some changes just to remove the yellow brick road around the flank, but I still wanted it to be an option, just one that comes with some difficulty now (if I didn't want it to happen at all, I would either make the whole area impassable or have every bridge over there blown at the start). I think that the BEF, if left untouched, could break out of any trap the Germans might create for them by forced marching day and night around their flank. Also, again, by not bloodying the BEF, you essentially make them a wild card where they can be committed in full force anywhere at full strength and 0 fatigue. The BEF then conceivably be used to be a game changer somewhere, by counter attacking. So, I think bypassing/avoiding the BEF only, in the end at least, helps the Allies.

But yes, the Germans should naturally try to flank around them in the west, and it should be possible to achieve this in the game if the Allies do not react well to the advance. I just believe the combination of flanking and putting pressure on them directly is the best choice. If someone can show me that the Germans can transplant the entire 1.Armee behind the BEF before they get released then I will naturally make a few more tweaks to make it harder for the 1.Armee to do it because, obviously, dancing around them would become a "golden bullet" tactic that it shouldn't be (it should come with pros and cons). AFAICT, this is all just speculation at this point however as I did do some extensive tests here and I don't think the Germans can accomplish it with anything other than risking their entire cavalry corps in the process.

We just have to get the most competent FWWC attack(s) together with the most competent FWWC defender(s) and see how the early campaign plays out one day. ;)