Night Disruption M44, etc.

[cavalry corps]

Great new rule...

As far as I can see the default value in the pdt is unchanged at 0 in M44

Is this on purpose or am I missing something.
what is the suggested value?

Also the quality fire mode is 0 is that intentional and also there is already an improved fire mod for A and B units.

Some fire mods allow for fractions like 1.5 , that is good but all the pdt do not use it so far, is that intended.

Cav

[raizer]

i just opened up 2 of the minsk campaign games, the stock and alt and under the combat modifiers at the bottom of the parameter data, both had the fire mod at 1, which means the extra 10/20% is employed
But WTF the range effect is 3?! I think it should be 1/3 right? lol...I checked all the minsk scenarios and its 3, yet in all the other games like kursk, kharkov, etc the range effect is 1/3, yet stalingrad has a range effect of 3.

[cavalry corps]

3 means 1/3 , in my alt games I set it as 1 to really allow the long range high velocity guns some action( but i do not allow unturretted guns, unless they are open types like Nashorn to have a range of more than 1) . setting it at 3 is a waste of time...In my games
All high velocity long range guns are feared if they can get LOS.

If the value is 1 on the fire i suppose you are correct but it says its only for A and B units, I am trying to think how its better than the esxisting rule which covers that.

My real issue is with the night modifier, people will think its in all the games with the patches but unless there is a new PDT it means nothing, hoping someone will correct me on this.

cav

[Ricky B]

The night rule is added, but I assume set to 0 for existing scenarios as it can be a big game changer. So where needed or wanted, a custom scenario can be setup and played using a modified pdt. That is my assumption anyway, and seems reasonable - that was the entire reason it was made a pdt setting, so the rule can be used/added as needed, I think, and varied in effect the same way. As it isn't an optional rule, this is the way to control where it has an impact - but the change is implemented, it just needs scenarios altered to actually use it as desired.

Same on the quality fire modifier - it is an additional modifier, not in place of the existing rules of added benefit to A/B units, to give them a bit more advantage where desired. Again, I think set to 0 in many titles, but available to change where a player desires.

Rick

[Mr Grumpy]

The night rule is added, but I assume set to 0 for existing scenarios as it can be a big game changer. So where needed or wanted, a custom scenario can be setup and played using a modified pdt. That is my assumption anyway, and seems reasonable - that was the entire reason it was made a pdt setting, so the rule can be used/added as needed, I think, and varied in effect the same way. As it isn't an optional rule, this is the way to control where it has an impact - but the change is implemented, it just needs scenarios altered to actually use it as desired.

Same on the quality fire modifier - it is an additional modifier, not in place of the existing rules of added benefit to A/B units, to give them a bit more advantage where desired. Again, I think set to 0 in many titles, but available to change where a player desires.

Thanks for that background Rick, so it seems if the PDT is set at 0 for either of both of these rules then they will have no effect on play.

I wonder how many players are ticking the QFM opt rule when the PDT is set by default to 0 and it is actually having no effect?? :chin:

[raizer]

I would think the qual fatigue modifier would only act on fatigue accumulation and recovery...whereas the actual firing bonus is in play only if that combat modifier at the bottom of the pdt is a factor greater than 0

btw in Normandy, kursk, kh43 and stalingrad and every other PzC game I have updated to the newest version, the pdt for EVERY scenario I checked has the quality fire modifier in the parameter data set at 1, so those firing bonuses for A (+20%) B(+10%) and Penalties for D (-20%) E (-30%) and below are in play.

BTW Its a brutal modifier-you talking a 40% swing for most German/Russian games.

One question: Is it based on a units inherent, unmodified value or is it based on the fluid values brought about by disruption, low ammo, fatigue, etc.?

[Ricky B]

Well, it sounds like my background is only valid for Minsk - no idea why some are set off and some or most on. I can see the change really skewing Smolensk or Kharkov '42 is the new qualify fire mod is turned on in those, while for Minsk and Stalingrad I see it being a good fit.

And as raizer pointed out, the QFM optional rule is related to fatigue implementation related to quality.

[raizer]

Well, it sounds like my background is only valid for Minsk - no idea why some are set off and some or most on. I can see the change really skewing Smolensk or Kharkov '42 is the new qualify fire mod is turned on in those, while for Minsk and Stalingrad I see it being a good fit.

And as raizer pointed out, the QFM optional rule is related to fatigue implementation related to quality.

Ricky I think you are spot on for the firing mod being good in minsk and stalingrad and especially Normandy...NOT in kharkov 42 and I would not want to see it in kursk.

In KH43 it is a brutal mod. Germans can rake thru entire stacks of soviets with that firing modifier. Trenches are nullified. Lone units hit by A stacks with that 20% bonus will be turned red real quick.

Time will tell on this one. My partner hoff and I only made it to turn 49 of the Grand KH campaign as the russians. We are germans in the other game and enjoying the firing modifier immensely...too much so I feel

[Strela]

Interesting discussion around QFM - this was bought in to allow German companies stand up when taking on Soviet battalions. It becomes more skewed when German are only using battalions called out.

Now that said we have realised that when we delivered the latest patch for Kharkov '43 that we introduced a change that is having unexpected consequences.

We made two key changes - we updated the OB file and built Panzer companies into a full TOE model so that if a company could theoretically have 17 tanks in it then it could if rested reach that number. Originally we had much lower theoretical numbers based upon the strength return data that was available at the time.

The second change was that we upped the German unit recovery rate from 2% to 3%. This has had an outsized impact as it is both further modified by morale and also looks at the current loss ratio to the full strength unit.

So a well intentioned change to slightly accelerate the German recovery rate has allowed a much faster recovery of any depleted German unit - but in particular the Panzer tank units.

If you read the rule definition at the end of this post you will understand the mechanics and why we have screwed up here.

We are thinking what should be done to fix this but as a stated I suggest any games drop the German recovery rate back to 2 in the PDT file and should consider even scaling this back to 1. For A grade troops a 1 would be modified up to 2 anyway. Any PDT file that is adjusted this way will impact any games underway now.

More problematic is the TOE strength for the Panzer units and we will give consideration to readjusting the OB if people feel this is still a significant issue.

As mentioned here is how Unit Loss Recovery rule works :

Unit Loss Recovery
Units that have taken losses in combat have the possibility of recovering some of their losses. This represents a combination of factors such as straggler recovery, wounded recovery, reinforcements, and vehicle repair. Loss recovery also applies to losses taken by air units. The determination of unit loss recovery is automatically made at the beginning of each player turn for the units for that side and reported in the Command Dialog of the Main Program. Loss recovery is based on Parameter Data for each side as given in the Parameter Data Dialog of the Main Program. Before a unit can recover losses, it must not move, fire, assault, be fired upon, or be assaulted during the previous turn. In addition, the unit cannot be Digging-In, be building a bridge, be Broken, or be in a minefield. The Parameter Data value for that side will determine what percentage of its losses the unit is eligible to recover.
The Quality of a unit affects its nominal recovery rate based on the following modifiers:
• Quality A units recover at 200% the nominal rate.
• Quality B units recover at 150% the nominal rate.
• Quality D units recover at 75% the nominal rate.
• Quality E units recover at 50% the nominal rate.
• Quality F units recover at 25% the nominal rate.

Examples:
• Suppose that an infantry battalion of C Quality had suffered losses of 200 men out of a total strength of 600 and that the Unit Recovery for its side is 2%. When eligible, it will recover an average of 4 men per turn.
• Suppose that an infantry battalion of C Quality had suffered losses of 10 men out of a total strength of 600 and that the Unit Recovery for its side is 2%. When eligible, it will recover an average of 0.2 men per turn or in other words, 1 man every 5 turns.
• Suppose that a tank battalion of C Quality had suffered a loss of 1 tank out a total strength of 35 and that the Unit Recovery for its side is 2%. When eligible, it will recover an average of 0.02 tanks per turn. In other words, it will take about 50 turns to recover the loss.

Note that as a unit is restored to full strength and the remaining loss decreases, then the loss recovery in absolute terms will drop as it is always calculated as a percentage of remaining losses. As in the previous examples, a loss of 200 men results in an initial recovery of 4 men per turn, but once the strength is restored to just 10 losses, then the recovery drops to 1 man every 5 turns.

[cavalry corps]

All interesting stuff, in my Minsk game ( revised pdt) I have the same 1% for German armour to represent good recovery /light damage etc , 1 is enough if you allow companies to recover to possible max strength. If you want to have variable strengths of units you can always toy with the breakdown.

I would encourage the game designers to put a value in the night fatigue as it NOT AN OPTIONAL RULE. Otherwise what is the point in putting 0 value , or does 0 actually mean something????

In VM B44 which I am just starting the value is 30 , seems quite high but we will see. For certain this rule is the best addition for years and will slow down attacks.

CAV