Quick Reference Cards for PC?

[ivanmoe]

This is the point that ivanmoe might not appreciate, with 20+ titles keeping on top of this and making sure the PDT sheets are 100% correct would be a full time job and not many players have that amount free time.

The fact that there are so many titles is why it's so important to document the differences. One of the criticisms that you hear of these games is that they are "cookie-cutter" knockoffs that shouldn't be taken seriously. Wouldn't a great way to counter that belief be to generate simple documentation that allows folks to analyze the differences between games?

I agree with the other guys, a press of F4 to view the PDT is no issue for me at all, a much more complicated issue is the optional rules in these titles which we have spent a lot of time trying to help the community with.

Well, the parameter data is certainly easy enough to access. However, there are a LOT of entries in there, and the forest can certainly get in the way of the proverbial tree. I find myself going through and jotting down values that I believe are useful in attempting to play. A few minutes later, I find myself back in the tables trying to ferret out additional values. Eventually, I suppose that I'll put it all into a text file.

Like I said, in an earlier post, though. The new 2-D view has given me hope for a brighter future!:bow:

[Ricky B]

I prefer to let the game run itself, and most of the PDT is information used to run it behind the scenes, not something useful to a player - I am talking about the movement costs. I couldn't, and wouldn't, use those to calculate a move, I just like to see how far I can move, sometimes keeping movement left to fire once, and the in game tools allow me to do that.

I'm surprised to hear that you wouldn't carefully examine movement rates/costs to plot a move in a game that uses this system. For example, how would you know how to budget your Travel-movement in such a way that a unit is able to exit the mode as close to the enemy as possible (assuming that's your aim)?

I will stick to one point at a time, as this will get unreadable quickly. On this point, I gave my style of play (by the way nothing I am saying has anything to do with the developer!), yours may differ which is fine - I haven't dug into the games you have, but most of the newer games have started writeups that indicate exactly how I plan my travel mode movement. It isn't by the tedium of planning each move by trying to count costs per hex, as between the terrain, elevation, and hexside costs it gets a bit much. The games have a "reachable hexes" button that shows how far a unit or stack of selected units can reach. Then there is a save movement costs button that saves enough points to deploy - in conjunction with reachable hexes it shows where a unit can move to and still deploy.

[Ricky B]

Honestly, I think that it'd be a huge help if the developer (and that appears to entail the efforts of dozens of guys) would include a PDF with each patch that includes the following:
a) simple data that players will find useful in playing the games. In its absence, anyone who wants to play these games is going to have to look the items up and write it all down or put it in a text file for easy access.
b) an outline of rules that are unique to the game in question-of how its different from other games in the "Panzer Campaigns" series.
c) The change log that now appears in the patch README file.

Thoughts?

Well, I see folks heaping mass volumes of BS&T into these games. The work manifests itself all manner of product, art, scenarios, et cetera, moving small mountains to improve that which can be improved. And I'd note that it was the inclusion of the new 2-D view that has gotten me interested in Panzer Campaigns again. With that in mind, I'd suggest that fleshing out the documentation with some kind of "Quick Reference Card" PDF for the individual titles wouldn't clash with the hard-coding!;)

I figured one response might cover the rest of things, I removed points that seemed a bit redundant.

On your 3 points above:

1. I attached a sample file I created in about 2 min from the PDT in Kh'43. Does that follow what you are thinking of? Not sure something like it would be added, for EACH pdt that might come with the stock game, just trying to get a feel for what you think it needed. For me much less but picking out the parts from here would take more time, I was just trying to do a quick cut and paste showing anything possibly useful to players.

2. There are no rules "unique" to a single game, with the exception that a new game will have new rules until the older games are updated. The changes listed in the readme in #3 list the vast majority of those unique rules, until they get rolled back. So I am not sure if that covers what you mean, or I misunderstand?

3. There is already the changes file, are you suggesting 1 and 3 get combined into an improved changes list, or update, whether a pdf or a text file as an improvement? As long as there are accessible files, I would prefer something related to data, such as the PDT listing, be separate from the changes. And there is normally a link in the game shortcuts to the changes file.

As to user add-ons, we like those here, and like that the games allow it - they aren't always improvements, I look at them as nice alternatives, some of which I prefer, some I don't, and that is true of everyone. And alternate scenaros, or new ones, are okay, again some I like, some I don't, but having choices is good. I am thinking but am not sure that you aren't suggesting that HPS/Tiller Software track the user add-ons - we try to do that here at the Blitz where we have the files, but I don't know that there is a way for HPS to even know about add-ons, and there are some they can't legally touch, in particular some of the art, although scenarios could be packaged and tracked if players wanted, assuming HPS or Tiller Software were able to do so effectively.

Thanks for the discussion.
Rick

[Dog Soldier]

The fact that there are so many titles is why it's so important to document the differences. One of the criticisms that you hear of these games is that they are "cookie-cutter" knockoffs that shouldn't be taken seriously. Wouldn't a great way to counter that belief be to generate simple documentation that allows folks to analyze the differences between games?

Those who throw out those types of criticisms are just so wrong. Would you not drive your Lamborghini on a certain road, because all roads are the same made of concrete and asphalt? The truth is roads take you to different places though all roads are "cookie-cutter" knockoffs of other roads, right? The depth of research that goes into each and every PzC title is way above anything I have ever seen in 40 years of war gaming.

Such nonsense is spewed by those who have no idea of the depth of the PzC game system. There is much subtly in the way the elements interact. Pay attention to that aspect as RickyB suggests and you will have many hours of enjoyment. Analyzing the thing is not fun. That is work.

There are plenty of great people here at the blitz who will play a PBEM small scenario with a new or returning player to get them back into the game. Experience is the best teacher of all. And a dang good things these guys in the PzC games are digital. I would have been hung long ago for my mistakes coming up the learning curve.

Dog Soldier

[-72-]

I'll see what I can do (regarding the standard pdts) when I get into things -as it can apply to more than just the PzC/MC/FWWC series. (Meaning if it gets done for one, others will want it as well... so it can be a pretty big job).

I should also mention that I have taken onboard too the remark about how it has proven tough to keep them current with the update systems being used.

Anyway, I'll add that to my (now) backburner with shelves as something I might be able to do.

[keif149]

I suppose screen shots could be taken, then using a full install of Adobe, they can be converted to a printable medium, if one wanted to hold a physical copy. Probably easier to use the hotkey.

[Ricky B]

I suppose screen shots could be taken, then using a full install of Adobe, they can be converted to a printable medium, if one wanted to hold a physical copy. Probably easier to use the hotkey.

If you simply want to print it, you can highlight the text, ctrl-c to copy it, then paste it into an editor such as Wordpad. That is what I did to create the partial sample I attached earlier - much cleaner than a print screen that way.

Rick

[keif149]

Yes, looks good.

[-72-]

What I have in mind, is a series of tables, and since I am not a fan of using borders, I am thinking something with a look a bit like a checkbook, maybe alternating light grey and white, with the table header in a different shade.

There aren't nearly as many maps in the PzC as there are in some of the grand tactical scale material -so it would be a good addition to the site I think.

I'd been thinking of doing a map key for awhile too, but I figure doing the maps using stock graphics are more useful to the company as a whole. What I had in mind there was doing something similar to what Talonsoft did in their user guides, which in turn was very similar to what boardgame companies have been doing for years. Something with a terrain image from the game in all states (2d zoom in, zoom out, 3d zoom in, zoom out), name of the terrain, formatted in a table setting. While it might be logical to then use the pdt info there, it might be a little much to take on since in PzC there are so many types of movement classes, then double that for movement states (T formation or not).

At any rate, an interesting idea.

[raizer]

I know I wouldn't want a quick reference card displaying my wins/losses
LOL