Engineers

[Chuck10mtn]

Isn't the game scale what ever a designer makes it ??? I know Ed to some thats all that matters and to those people keep playing the games that are based on that fact. To people who want to design a scenario with longer time scale go ahead. I'm not going to argue the 6 min turn, its a arguement that can't ever be settled. I think the more units can do can make for some really good new options for game that are longer.
Just my thoughts on adding more to what units can do. I'm not really big on adding more units I think there's enough now. I don't want to see a carpenters units along with the wagons to make repairs on them so they can continue to move at regular strength.

And than there are some who either "blindly" or "deliberately" stumble over the trip wire? :chin:

Chuck - for an enlightening discussion on game scale and what not (maybe you missed it?) - check out this recent CS thread:

https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards...?tid=59800

Enjoy!

Kool,
Been there seen then all. Some who have a closed mind won't see the road ahead because they're still looking behind them. You have to look ahead to see the trip wire :rolleyes:

[Von Earlmann]

Roads, no I don't think that's reasonable. There's a lot more to making a passable road, especially for wheeled vehicles, than cutting down some trees. Trails maybe, but not roads.

Actually the American engineers made a road in the Bulge.....I recall it was east of Schoenburg and in the mud........remember we are only limited by our own imaginations......or as I tell the kids at school "When you say I can't.....you will most always be right " :-)

VE

[Herr Straße Laufer]

And, fit it within game scale?



HSL

Isn't the game scale what ever a designer makes it ???

No that is the problem. Designers should respect game scale. Some don't. Scale is scale. It is what the game is based upon.

I'm not really big on adding more units I think there's enough now. I don't want to see a carpenters units along with the wagons to make repairs on them so they can continue to move at regular strength.

I am a fan of new units. But, I see your second point and agree with it. That is what ruined Squad Leader.



HSL

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I don't want to start a new game scale discussion, but I do not see any reasons for game being eternally frozen to current specs either.

If someone then wants to stretch the limits beyond most players feel comfortable I do not see anything bad happening bar that scenario not getting much games in its belt.

Scale is scale. It is what every unit is based on. Adding units out of scale or designing scenarios that do not respect scale will dilute the game. IMO.



HSL

[Kool Kat]

Isn't the game scale what ever a designer makes it ???

CS is based on a specific scale that is defined in both the 1.03 User Manual (Page 13) and the Parameter Data (F3 function key when playing a scenario)

Minutes per Turn: 6

Meters per Hex: 250

Designers are free to use a "different" scale in their scenarios (IMO not a good idea)... but should clearly designate the different scale in the scenario description. For example, some Rising Sun scenario descriptions indicate island topography has been "condensed" to facilitate game play.

[Huib Versloot]

[Designers are free to use a "different" scale in their scenarios (IMO not a good idea)... but should clearly designate the different scale in the scenario description. For example, some Rising Sun scenario descriptions indicate island topography has been "condensed" to facilitate game play.

Are you going to edit the scenario descriptions of ALL scenarios? Except perhaps of some of your own hypothetical scenarios?
The so called "scale" blabla of you is getting really boring and misinformative to new players. You keep saying 1+1 = 3 because the manual says so. You have NEVER delivered any evidence that an historical scenario actually has 6 minute turns when you translate the events in the scenario back to the actual historical events covered. Why not? Because you can't find those scenarios and have never bothered to research. Your so called 'purist' argumentation is a complete hoax.

[Mike Abberton]

Roads, no I don't think that's reasonable. There's a lot more to making a passable road, especially for wheeled vehicles, than cutting down some trees. Trails maybe, but not roads.

Actually the American engineers made a road in the Bulge.....I recall it was east of Schoenburg and in the mud........remember we are only limited by our own imaginations......or as I tell the kids at school "When you say I can't.....you will most always be right " :-)

VE

Earl,

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that they couldn't build a road at all. That's probably one of the tasks engineers did all the time.

I was thinking that more in context of a reasonable game scale. Not just 6 minutes either. IMO, a turn would have to be several hours, at a minumum, to build a road through a 250 meter hex in good conditions. To build a road in muddy conditions that would support wheeled traffic would take even longer since you'd likely have to line the road with something (trees or PSP or something).

Mike

[Kool Kat]

Are you going to edit the scenario descriptions of ALL scenarios?

As I stated earlier, IMO it is a good idea for developers to highlight deviations from game scale in the scenario description. For example, in the Rising Sun "A Small Piece of Hell: Kwajalein," the following text appears..."Design note: Map scale has been adjusted for clarity and playability." Seems reasonable? :chin:

Except perhaps of some of your own hypothetical scenarios?

Actually, I've designed both semi-historical and hypothetical scenarios.

The so called "scale" blabla of you is getting really boring and misinformative to new players. You keep saying 1+1 = 3 because the manual says so.

CS is based on a specific scale that is defined in both the 1.03 User Manual (Page 13) and the Parameter Data (F3 function key when playing a scenario)

So, when both the manual and Parameter Data define a hex as 250 meters - it is NOT 250 meters? Than what is it? 2 feet? 10 miles? 100 miles? Whatever the designer decides it should be? Than magically, all unit fire ranges and movement rates "change" too - so we now have T34/85 tanks shooting at targets 100 miles away?

Well... at least we now know that both the scale definition sections of the User Manual and Parameter Data are "blabla" too? ;)

Your so called 'purist' argumentation is a complete hoax.

And your constant obsession with ignoring and avoiding to address what is both written in the User Manual and defined in the Parameter Data section... is boring, arrogant, and self serving?

[Wolfman]

Oh heck - I can see the fuse running to the powder keg on this thread all ready!

My 2 pence - A combat dozer can flatten a fairly large tree in 1-2 minutes so that fits in with the game scale, however building a road/track in that time seems silly. But I would like to see some form of unit capable of making woods more accessible.

[Von Earlmann]

Roads, no I don't think that's reasonable. There's a lot more to making a passable road, especially for wheeled vehicles, than cutting down some trees. Trails maybe, but not roads.

Actually the American engineers made a road in the Bulge.....I recall it was east of Schoenburg and in the mud........remember we are only limited by our own imaginations......or as I tell the kids at school "When you say I can't.....you will most always be right " :-)

VE

Earl,

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that they couldn't build a road at all. That's probably one of the tasks engineers did all the time.

I was thinking that more in context of a reasonable game scale. Not just 6 minutes either. IMO, a turn would have to be several hours, at a minumum, to build a road through a 250 meter hex in good conditions. To build a road in muddy conditions that would support wheeled traffic would take even longer since you'd likely have to line the road with something (trees or PSP or something).

Mike

Mike,
I didn't take offense but was musing as my rcollection of this is fuzzy....seems they built the road and did use trees as filler......it ended up being an important escape road also as I recall....but that's just my recollection of something I read a few years ago.

Not sure how or if it could be incorporated into the game or if it even needs to be, but I do agree it would be better used in the large scenarios. We are getting bigger and bigger scenarios now with the capabilities of the computers. I remember trying to play a big scenario back in the early 2000's and my comp would freeze up trying to watch the replay...now I can't keep up with the replay :-)

VE

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Oh heck - I can see the fuse running to the powder keg on this thread all ready!

My 2 pence - A combat dozer can flatten a fairly large tree in 1-2 minutes so that fits in with the game scale, however building a road/track in that time seems silly. But I would like to see some form of unit capable of making woods more accessible.

The game scale debate is almost as much fun as the......dare I say...........wait for it...........HALFTRACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I reckon if we can have engineers build a bridge across a non fordable river they probably could make something thru the woods.

As for game scale the 250 meter hex is not the problem. It works out quite well actually. It's the 6 minute/turn thingy that generates the debate..........and HALFTRACKS!!!!!!!!....YEEHAH!!!!!!!!

VE

[Crossroads]

Oh heck - I can see the fuse running to the powder keg on this thread all ready!

My 2 pence - A combat dozer can flatten a fairly large tree in 1-2 minutes so that fits in with the game scale, however building a road/track in that time seems silly. But I would like to see some form of unit capable of making woods more accessible.

The scale = 6 mins discussion has been done to ad nauseaum.

The topic of the thread is adding new units. The whole point of modding is to create alternative gaming experiences and I would like to keep the scale discussion on another thread, the one brought up by KK is one and please keep the scale discussion there.

Let us agree for this thread that the scale is taken care with the scenario designer adding a disclaimer to the scenario description that the scneario is not 100% true to e.g. 20 turns = 2 hours scale.

Bridge laying capability is a very cool feature. Bridge destroying, laying mines, clearing mines, also.

If not for the purists then stay out from those scenarios right?

But to flood every new unit discussion with scale is becoming boring. Let us agree the scale concern here is now taken into consideration and continue with new units. Yes?

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As for game scale the 250 meter hex is not the problem. It works out quite well actually. It's the 6 minute/turn thingy that generates the debate..........and HALFTRACKS!!!!!!!!....YEEHAH!!!!!!!!

VE

Regarding the 6 minutes thingy: Exactly, that's the point.

Regarding halftracks, hmmm haven't had one of those threads for ages :smoke: