Engineers

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Oh heck - I can see the fuse running to the powder keg on this thread all ready!

My 2 pence - A combat dozer can flatten a fairly large tree in 1-2 minutes so that fits in with the game scale, however building a road/track in that time seems silly. But I would like to see some form of unit capable of making woods more accessible.

Have you ever operated a dozer? :chin:
And, how many trees are there in a 250 meter hex where you can drop enough trees to have tanks and/or trucks go through like it is a road?

If there is a powder keg it would be those who do not want to see game scale as what it is?
Facts are facts and if one were to "bend" them or make personal attacks against others to make their points then the fuse may be lit? :whis:

I prefer simple discussion based on facts, truth, and what is written in the manual, etc.



HSL

---

As for game scale the 250 meter hex is not the problem. It works out quite well actually. It's the 6 minute/turn thingy that generates the debate..........and HALFTRACKS!!!!!!!!....YEEHAH!!!!!!!!

VE

:eek1: Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! :pullhair:

When halftracks are made to fly,
then we can have dozers that can make roads in 6 minutes! :pig:



HSL

[Kool Kat]

The whole point of modding is to create alternative gaming experiences and I would like to keep the scale discussion on another thread, the one brought up by KK is one and please keep the scale discussion there.

But to flood every new unit discussion with scale is becoming boring. Let us agree the scale concern here is now taken into consideration and continue with new units. Yes?

No worries BK :smoke:

But, just for the record... I did not introduce the topic of "scale" in this thread - though it is very relevant to the introduction of new units? I was initially responding to Chuck's comment that game scale was whatever the designer decided...

I apologize if I contributed to taking this thread "off subject." :bow:

And yes, I am all in favor of new units too!

So... by all means, let's continue with the OP's original thread topic... introducing road building engineers and bulldozer units.

BTW... I just learned that Clark developed an air transportable tractor / dozer in the early 1940's - click HERE.

A possible new unit for proposed road clearing engineers?

Course... if you start thinking about the number of dozers and time needed to clear a 250 meter area for a roadway... but than that "scale" thingy raises it's ugly head again? :chin:

[Herr Straße Laufer]

The scale = 6 mins discussion has been done to ad nauseaum.

The topic of the thread is adding new units. The whole point of modding is to create alternative gaming experiences and I would like to keep the scale discussion on another thread, the one brought up by KK is one and please keep the scale discussion there.

Sorry, discussion police are not needed. :chin:
Scale is very important when adding new units. Here is where scale can be discussed so that new units fit the scale?

Let us agree for this thread that the scale is taken care with the scenario designer adding a disclaimer to the scenario description that the scneario is not 100% true to e.g. 20 turns = 2 hours scale.

How about designers simply respecting game scale. There are plenty of other scales in Tiller game designs that they can mess with?

Bridge laying capability is a very cool feature. Bridge destroying, laying mines, clearing mines, also.

I agree.

If not for the purists then stay out from those scenarios right?

But to flood every new unit discussion with scale is becoming boring. Let us agree the scale concern here is now taken into consideration and continue with new units.

Except for condescending comment. :smoke:
No one is flooding anything. Only making comments to the flood of "un-purest" comments.
It just seems like a lot. ;)

The developers should be asking themselves the "scale" question every time there is something added to the game. It is only common sense? Why not here too?



HSL

[Jason Petho]

Just wait until you see the Daisy Cutter in action in Modern Wars: Volume I.

[Dragoon]

Hello,

I dont think it would take long to punch a rough one way road (not clear cut the entire hex)through some woods for tracked vehicles and 4x4 jeep like vehicles.A guy who works for me cut a trail big enough to get my jeep 200 yards into the woods and I didnt need 4x4.I dont think it took him 2 hours with a chainsaw by himself.Not sure if they had chain saws back then but if they did a platoon of engineers could cut down some trees in a hurry...The only reason I brought it up is my opponent blew some bridges and I'm in for a long haul to get units anywhere,a road would be nice in one area....In another scenerio I finnaly got to use a mine laying engineer.So far in 12 turns he was able to lay 1 level1 mine field in a tottal game time of 72 minutes.

Other than that my buck is still on the ridge...

Cheers

Dragoon

[Chuck10mtn]

I hope that the 6 min game turn paragraph will find itself on the editing room floor from now on. There's been countless games shown to not meet the 6 min game turn that were in the origional scenarios, Jason showed some the last time this discussion happened. Some of the game rules that were made when the game 1st started may have been due to the fact that computers back then couldn't handle a bigger game. Memory and the speed of todays computers were only a thought back when the game was invented. I'm not sure if computer ability was a factor of scenarios size back at its beginnings but it could have been.

[Crossroads]

BTW... I just learned that Clark developed an air transportable tractor / dozer in the early 1940's - click HERE.

A possible new unit for proposed road clearing engineers?

Course... if you start thinking about the number of dozers and time needed to clear a 250 meter area for a roadway... but than that "scale" thingy raises it's ugly head again? :chin:

Good one KK! Yes, that would be a heck of a unit to add to OOB Maybe it could be parachuted?

And I am certainly fine discussing scale when discussing units, as we are doing just now. And you certainly make a valid point.

But how dense is the forest? And would we be fine with just one narrow track through the hex, from one hex side to another? In a non-dense forest, clearing a way to halftracks would be actually doable within the scenario?

As for the scale thing, I was merely making a humble wish that the discussion as what is the scale the engine has should be discussed - in a thread that is discussing scale of the engine. :soap: Discussion police - To Serve And To Protect :whis:

Sorry, discussion police are not needed. :chin:
Scale is very important when adding new units. Here is where scale can be discussed so that new units fit the scale?

-

How about designers simply respecting game scale. There are plenty of other scales in Tiller game designs that they can mess with?

-

Except for condescending comment. :smoke:
No one is flooding anything. Only making comments to the flood of "un-purest" comments.
It just seems like a lot. ;)

The developers should be asking themselves the "scale" question every time there is something added to the game. It is only common sense? Why not here too?



HSL

Policing, Scale - re my comment to KK

Purists - I never said being purist is a bad thing. Me, I only eat vanilla ice cream :smoke:

Developers should be asking the scale thing to themselves. Agreed. But we obviously need a scale disclaimer though, in order to not have the same conversation every time. It is getting boring and repetitive.

This 10 turn scenario represents an hour of fighting at ...

This 20 turn scenario represents the afternoon of fighting at ...

This 30 turn scenario represent the fighting that took place between 13th and 14th of...

I can see myself playing all those three scenarios, should they otherwise be interesting and fun to play. But that's just me of course. As for the 250m thing, that is rarely discussed but the island example is a good one as why one would play with that aspect of the scale as well.

[Jason Petho]

Developers should be asking the scale thing to themselves. Agreed. But we obviously need a scale disclaimer though, in order to not have the same conversation every time.

There is even a place to do so in the "new" scenario introduction templates, for those that wish to use them.

https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards...?tid=55269

Jason Petho

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I hope that the 6 min game turn paragraph will find itself on the editing room floor from now on.

Then they might as well trash the entire game.
Working backwards any mathematician could figure the scale was 250 meters and six minutes was the approx time per turn.
What all do not see (or do not want to see) is the game is set up that way from its movement to the fire tables. It just is, what it is?

You may not like it but the game is a fine representation of the scale it was designed for. I agree with Jason that some of the early designs were meant to represent games that covered more time than the six minutes. But, everything (unless there is something new I do not know about) moves and shoots within the games scale. "No plan survives first contact." And, there in is the rub. You can design a scenario to your hearts content, that is way out of scale. But, the units you play with will be acting in scale (except for minor things like "rest" or "supply").
If a few of the hundreds of game designs represent battles that cover more than the turns involved you still have to respect the scale of the game. If those developers/designers wanted a bit out of scale to make a fun, playable, balanced game ... sobeit.
Putting in "out of scale" units would begin to degrade the game. Designing scenarios that do not fit parts of the scale, like say ... movement, range, and time, would begin to kill off this game.

Believe me, if Jason and crew can program differing times of the day/night that scenario designers could use to do their "three days of battle" that would be great.
If they are going to "improve" the supply to go along with it, ... great too!
Maybe they could have units become "combat ineffective" from continuous fighting and have them disappear from the map?

Maybe, because there was one, we could have bunker buster bombs, or better still Atomic bombs. Take out that bunker or bridge?
Why ... drop the bomb and everyone on the map fries? Gosh ... that would be great too! Hey, it's only turn six of our 800 turn game ... I watched the replay until the white flash on the screen and then everything went blank!
That would be a great game.

I'll vote for scale.

Thanks!



HSL

[Jason Petho]

Hey, it's only turn six of our 800 turn game ... I watched the replay until the white flash on the screen and then everything went blank!

Ahh, how I miss Windows ME.

Jason Petho