Engineers

[Kool Kat]

Working backwards any mathematician could figure the scale was 250 meters and six minutes was the approx time per turn.
What all do not see (or do not want to see) is the game is set up that way from its movement to the fire tables. It just is, what it is?

You may not like it but the game is a fine representation of the scale it was designed for. But, everything (unless there is something new I do not know about) moves and shoots within the games scale.

I'll vote for scale.

And this is the essence of the entire "argument" over scale.

Put aside all the emotions, egos, and personalities (me included) who "regularly" weigh in on this topic and who are very passionate and unashamed to be passionate about it... in the end it always comes back to scale.

Why?

Because the CS game engine is built upon a specific scale (distance / time) and unit's movement rates and fire tables adhere to that scale.

The "friction" is when units get added to the CS organizational tables that fall outside these data perimeters. The "sparks also fly" when individuals defend these units inclusions by either making obtuse "non-scale" statements or avoiding answering / addressing CS scale.

Frankly, it would be refreshing for the defenders of the inclusion of non-scale units to declare once and for all that the CS game scale is NOT 6 minutes per turn... and that hexes are NOT 250 meters... that both the User Manual and Data Perimeter information is wrong... that unit movement rates and fire tables are based on arbitrary numbers... and than explain to CS players what is the true game scale?

It would be a short conversation? :chin:

Like Ed, I enjoy and am passionate about CS... and also not ashamed to defend it. I don't want to see this game engine become so compromised by the introduction of non-scale units and other flotsam... that it becomes unrecognizable as a great, enjoyable, and fun tactical WWII game.

[Chuck10mtn]

I hope that the 6 min game turn paragraph will find itself on the editing room floor from now on.

Then they might as well trash the entire game.
Working backwards any mathematician could figure the scale was 250 meters and six minutes was the approx time per turn.
What all do not see (or do not want to see) is the game is set up that way from its movement to the fire tables. It just is, what it is?

You may not like it but the game is a fine representation of the scale it was designed for. I agree with Jason that some of the early designs were meant to represent games that covered more time than the six minutes. But, everything (unless there is something new I do not know about) moves and shoots within the games scale. "No plan survives first contact." And, there in is the rub. You can design a scenario to your hearts content, that is way out of scale. But, the units you play with will be acting in scale (except for minor things like "rest" or "supply").
If a few of the hundreds of game designs represent battles that cover more than the turns involved you still have to respect the scale of the game. If those developers/designers wanted a bit out of scale to make a fun, playable, balanced game ... sobeit.
Putting in "out of scale" units would begin to degrade the game. Designing scenarios that do not fit parts of the scale, like say ... movement, range, and time, would begin to kill off this game.

Believe me, if Jason and crew can program differing times of the day/night that scenario designers could use to do their "three days of battle" that would be great.
If they are going to "improve" the supply to go along with it, ... great too!
Maybe they could have units become "combat ineffective" from continuous fighting and have them disappear from the map?

Maybe, because there was one, we could have bunker buster bombs, or better still Atomic bombs. Take out that bunker or bridge?
Why ... drop the bomb and everyone on the map fries? Gosh ... that would be great too! Hey, it's only turn six of our 800 turn game ... I watched the replay until the white flash on the screen and then everything went blank!
That would be a great game.

I'll vote for scale.

Thanks!



HSL

Ed,
Why is it that movement, 250 meters per hex and every other part of the game works so well for you, but a turn lasting a day is way out of the relm of thought. What if the original stated time was say 10 min per turn. Would you now be complaining that the game at 250 meters per hex was wrong !! and the scale was off by 50 meters. Scale, time distance and movement are great but I prefer a well balanced game even if all of those are thrown out the window. Interesting conversation but I'll end with this no reason to get everybody all rilled up over something so basic.

[Post edited by Scud to move the response out of the quoted area]

[Von Earlmann]

You know this is one of the longest and liveliest threads in CS for a while..........the good thing about starting a thread is it is a discussion.......and all good discussions get into what ifs etc..........that's not getting off topic it's expanding the topic....you know like when we all used to play face to face till about 9:30 and then go over to the Deli for a couple of drinks....the discussions were sometimes animated and almost always fun.........we managed to do that every week and everyone got to have their say and a drink........that's how friends do it :-)

So,let's lighten up and have a good discussion of the what ifs this topic brings up..........leave the staying on topic for the boring presidential debates.

Going to the garage now to work on my halftrack :-)

VE

PS: I've got a chainsaw out there somewhere too.

[Dragoon]

VE grab your chain saw and meet with me at hex 80/44...I got some work for you.Pay is low but I have some captured vodka from the Eatern Front.All you can drink!!

Dragoon

PS Bring that halftrack too,we'll mount the chain saw on the front and go like heck!!

Dragoon

[Kool Kat]

What if the original stated time was say 10 min per turn. Would you now be complaining that the game at 250 meters per hex was wrong !! and the scale was off by 50 meters.

We can play ""what if" scenarios from now until the end of time? But is does not change the facts? The stated CS scale is 6 minutes per turn and 250 meters per hex. The unit movement rate and fire rate tables are based on that scale. The entire game engine is built around these data perimeters. Why is that fact such a hard one to accept?

Scale, time distance and movement are great but I prefer a well balanced game even if all of those are thrown out the window.

Chuck, the irony of your statement is if developers disregard scale, time, distance, and movement... you can't have a well balanced game... it is an impossibility.

IMO, developers must adhere to "some" game parameters (either those found in the game engine) or made up (as some would do?)... or what you have is an incoherent mess?

So, even those defenders of the inclusion of non-scale units... adhere to the "some" game parameters approach? :chin:

Interesting conversation but I'll end with this no reason to get everybody all rilled up over something so basic.

Scale is basic and fundamental to the structure and make up of CS.

[Jason Petho]

Scale is basic and fundamental to the structure and make up of CS.

I have never had an issue with the 250 metre map scale. Of course, there are examples of maps where this is not always adhered to; the designer mentions it in the scenario notes or disregards it based on poor source material or disregards it out of artistic licence.

Do I think the weapons ranges are based on the 250 metre map scale? Yes, I do.

I do have an issue with the time scale. Do I think the game scale is 6 minutes? No. Based on the scenarios from the previous discussion, it is far from the standard.

Do I think that the numerous platoons used 6 minutes to calculate it's movement? No, I don't.

For example. Let's take out the trusty PSW-221 which in the game has a maximum road speed of 90km/h.

A few quick calculations reveals that the PSW-221 should be able travel 36 hexes.

Actual movement abilities on a flat map, in good terrain along a paved road? 34 hexes.

How about the Panzer IIIG? It should be able to travel 16 hexes. Actual in game movement with the same parameters as above? 14 hexes.

And so on.

Jason Petho

[Glint]

Ok. I've played nearly 300 pbem games and can honestly say scale never came into my mind once as to the enjoyment of the game. Sure it counts regarding basics such as how far a unit moves and fires per (6 minute turn?) Further than that I've never looked any further. There are many new units now that create more enjoyment of the game, if you don't like them, don't play those scenarios, play what you are happy with. I don't knock the purists, design and play to your hearts content, leave others to play their preferences. Perhaps a vote would show the preferences better and cut the persistant views of a few? With regards to engineers cutting through woods etc, seem to remember a Sherman Culmin cutting through a bocage hedgerow within 6 minutes or, so we assume the 250 metre hex is full of hedgerows to cut through? Therefore, is an engineer platoon bridging a 40 foot river/stream or a 10 foot one? Who says an engineer platoon can't cut through a wooded area that maybe 250 metres thick or just a 250 meter area with woods in it? I think some are taking the scale a bit too seriously. Is a platoon sitting behind a hedge/ brick wall or peering over it? Heck, we've all gone down this road before, especially with halftracks and lorries even! As was said before time and time again, some persistently argue the case for purity to the extent that they will brainwash people that their way is the only way and refute anyone else's views to the extreme.
Well, that may cost me another 20% warning level but let's hope each member's views can be aired?

[Glint]

Also remember Jason stating once about woods. With the tools available, you can construct
light woods with 'orchards' where armour can move through easier than wooded hexes.
If you wish to restrict armour from moving through designated 'heavy woods' you can use
embankment hexsides etc, to prevent their' movement. So, there are many ways to utilise
tools to provide extras to the game. Extra units for scenario creation are all welcome as far as I am concerned, use them or ignore them, that's the other beauty of the beta teams efforts.

[Crossroads]

:soap:

There are very good points raised by all parties and this sort of brings me back to my original point, a game engine being mod friendly.

On one hand, JTCS is mod friendly to an extent as it has handy tools for almost any gamer to create his or her scenarios, with many cases imagination only being the limitation.

On other hand, to be truly mod friendly, this is unfortunately not enough. We would need more freedom for modders, and the capability to run parallel JTCS installations.

How far are we? It is my recollection Jason has put instructions somewhere as how to run parallel JTCS instances within the same computer. This is propably doable, then.

The next step would be the ability to bee free to mod all aspects of the game, and the one thing we are missing is the ability to mod unit specs.

With these aspects met, we would not run into these arguments as how to experience the game engine within the one instance we are playing, the JTCS basic installation.

There is of course plethora of mods available to mod JTCS, graphics, sounds, you name it. It is a good thing, but not perfect.

Example: the Total War series I've been lately spending quite a lot of time with.

Have a look at the Medieval:Total War (M:TW) http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=556

All those mods are independent exes, that run parallel to vanilla M:TW. Amazing, truly amazing.

And my current favourite Rome: Total War (R:TW): http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=214. If you don't find a Rome simulation to meet with your needs well I'll be damned! And the point is: you could create your own.

If we could achieve something similar with JTCS that would be truly awesome.

Here's my first candidates, just out of top of my heads:

JTCS Vanilla. Enough said.

JTCS Strictly come dancing A mod for those who want to stick to very essence of 6 minutes / 250 meters. Units would be modded to perfection, including the movement ranges Jason mentions, those would be put right. Scenarios would be tuned similarly. EA and VV would be disabled. (I am making this up as I go and I mean absolutely no dig at anyone!) An active community be sure.

JTCS Corps to rescue A community for those large scale scenario fans who would like to have more freedom as how they would like to have their large scenarios play out. For the Bulge scenario the Bullzozer engineers would be added, and similarly various other new types of bridge building, road building, what have you capabilities would be added.

KKR's Early war at Pacific series (just making this up again hope you don't mind). Units added and tweaked as how KKR sees best to fit. Enough said, surely. No more pesky truck problems!

JTCS WW I edition Enough said?

JTCS WW II meets Modern times for those who would like to pitch their Panthers agains Bradleys.

Patton vs Aliens :smoke:

You get my picture. I could have all the instances on my computer, and play one of HSL's excellent there-and-back scenarios on my Strictly dancing edition, perhaps run one of heavily modded VE Kursk or Bulge scenarios on another, and participate in Ladder with Vanilla.

More there is, more there are people buying the JTCS to have access to engine. I first bought Empire! Total War, got into mods, and now stock Empire, Napoleon, Rome, Barbaric Invasions, Mediaval, Medieaval Kingdoms CDs in my stock.

This would be a good business proposal to Matrix as well? :chin:

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Ed,
Why is it that movement, 250 meters per hex and every other part of the game works so well for you, but a turn lasting a day is way out of the relm of thought. What if the original stated time was say 10 min per turn. Would you now be complaining that the game at 250 meters per hex was wrong !! and the scale was off by 50 meters. Scale, time distance and movement are great but I prefer a well balanced game even if all of those are thrown out the window. Interesting conversation but I'll end with this no reason to get everybody all rilled up over something so basic.

[Post edited by Scud to move the response out of the quoted area]

Please Chuck, don't put words, thoughts, or ideas that I do not believe into my mouth (or fingers when I type).
You erect a strawman.

Why I do not like a turn to represent a day?
===>Uh, because it is six minutes? I suggest you find a game where the scale is a turn equals a day.

What if ten minutes?
===>Then things would move differently? All units would move differently.

Complaining?
===> If defending truth and facts is complaining then you need to look up the definition of complaining.

"Rilled up"?
===> If you are "rilled up" Then you should not be responding?
I'm not riled up. I am not excited. I am not angry. If you see it differently then you would be wrong. I simply respond to words that are trying to make facts into "not facts".

I am all for fun and balanced games ... that fit the game scale. If I wanted something that was smaller in scale I'd play Squad Battles. If I wanted something larger, where a turn is hours, I'd play OpC. I would not try to shoe horn CS into a different scale.

No one will convince me that scale should be thrown out. It's there. It's part of the game. Its in every unit. I think scenario designers and the Matrix crew should respect it and nurture it as part of the game.
Ignore it is not right.



HSL