re: scenario design

[Von Earlmann]

Thanks for the input KK and Jason. However, whilst appreciating your comments, if you are creating hypothetical scenarios, then surely a guideline is needed? For example, you wouldn't create a map around five miles square and put a corps oob in it? I've checked online and found the guidelines as in my original post, appreciate the input so far and respect the opinions, would just like to know what other 'hypothetical designers' work on?

This is adequate for an average frontage for hypotheticals.

http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/ww2/snippe...ntages.htm

Jason Petho

The manual refers to a minimum battalion size organization in order for the supply system to work properly.

Jason Petho



[/quote]

Actually a company or unit will trace supply from the parent HQ above it no matter if it is battalion, regiment, division, etc.......it's also true that the more HQs above a unit the more supply checks will be made. If you have a battalion with no HQ etc all the comapnies and units below it will have no way to trace supply.If there are battalions below a regiment with no HQs the battalion hqs will have no way to trace supply which in turn will eventually affect all the units below them and so on.
So, you put all the companies into a regimental formation they will trace supply to the regimental HQ.Place all the division attachments and non regimental battalions into companies outside the regiment but below the division hq and they nwill trace directly to the Div HQ and the same thing will work for Corps units.When making larger scenarios this is the OOB I suggest. Putting in all the HQs that are default in an OOB only clutters things up and slows the game down. You can do a lot of neat things within the OOB to depict when one side had any sort of supply problems. Battalion HQs are way over rated for VPs in this game IMO and with a long los they are almost useless as you have to keep them so far away they can't effectively supply their units

VE

[Jason Petho]

Actually a company or unit will trace supply from the parent HQ above it no matter if it is battalion, regiment, division, etc.......it's also true that the more HQs above a unit the more supply checks will be made.

The bolded isn't quite correct.

Here is the first few paragraph's from the Modern Wars: Volume I manual.

3.3.2 Supply System

At the start of each turn, a Supply Check is made for every unit that fired in the previous turn. The result is that each unit that fired will be able to maintain supply or become low on ammo.

The Supply Check will first attempt to check supply through the units’ parent Headquarters. If the units’ parent Headquarters is not on the map, it will use the next Headquarters up the chain of command. The range is measured from the unit to the Headquarters to determine a base probability and conducts a percentile die roll to see if supply is maintained. The unit retains supply if the die roll is less than or equal to the base probability.

If this Supply Check fails, a second attempt is made but using the Base Ammo Level. The Base Ammo Level is displayed in the Unit List Display. A percentile die roll equal to or less than the Base Ammo Level means the unit retains supply.

Only the initial Headquarters Supply Check will be performed, the Supply Checks do not continue up through the chain of command if the initial check fails before performing a Supply Check against the Base Ammo Level. The Supply Check against the Base Ammo level is performed as a percentile die roll (0-99).

A unit that is Isolated (surrounded) will not perform Supply Checks.

Indirect Fire units perform Supply Checks only against the Base Ammo level. When an Indirect Fire fails its Supply Check, it will be unable to fire until it recovers supply.

Jason Petho

[Glint]

Getting some useful insights here, thanks again.
When I'm happy with my designs I'll make them public, in the meantime I'll
check them out with my trusted friends first. If they approve of them then
I'll make them public and guys can either enjoy or dismiss at their' choice.
My time is at a premium, even for playing games. I enjoy the scenario designing
and, no matter how long it takes, I'll continue till I'm happy with them.
One thing I would say is, I've played a fair few games where I can't believe the
poor attention to oob's. For example, getting disrupted units galore, only to find
there are no leaders around to help raise their morale! I'd rather take time to get
it as good as I can before throwing out sub-standard scenarios to all.

[Von Earlmann]

Actually a company or unit will trace supply from the parent HQ above it no matter if it is battalion, regiment, division, etc.......it's also true that the more HQs above a unit the more supply checks will be made.

The bolded isn't quite correct.

Here is the first few paragraph's from the Modern Wars: Volume I manual.

3.3.2 Supply System

At the start of each turn, a Supply Check is made for every unit that fired in the previous turn. The result is that each unit that fired will be able to maintain supply or become low on ammo.

The Supply Check will first attempt to check supply through the units’ parent Headquarters. If the units’ parent Headquarters is not on the map, it will use the next Headquarters up the chain of command. The range is measured from the unit to the Headquarters to determine a base probability and conducts a percentile die roll to see if supply is maintained. The unit retains supply if the die roll is less than or equal to the base probability.

If this Supply Check fails, a second attempt is made but using the Base Ammo Level. The Base Ammo Level is displayed in the Unit List Display. A percentile die roll equal to or less than the Base Ammo Level means the unit retains supply.

Only the initial Headquarters Supply Check will be performed, the Supply Checks do not continue up through the chain of command if the initial check fails before performing a Supply Check against the Base Ammo Level. The Supply Check against the Base Ammo level is performed as a percentile die roll (0-99).

A unit that is Isolated (surrounded) will not perform Supply Checks.

Indirect Fire units perform Supply Checks only against the Base Ammo level. When an Indirect Fire fails its Supply Check, it will be unable to fire until it recovers supply.

Jason Petho

I probably didn't phrase my first statement quite right.....I meant to say each hq will check up the line to the next until the highest is reached(hence more checks). I am also under the impression that a unit that goes low on ammo from firing can only resupply from it's parent hq and if it is not on the map there is no possibility of resupply....also those units do not check against base supply..........if they do why bother to put any hqs in at all.............just let all the units check against the base ammo level and if it is like 80% that's better than the 50% range of most hqs.........this must be a change from the original cs supply rules and if it is it will impact the game big time. Not argueing just trying to figure out what I thot I had spent years figuring out before :-)

VE

[Jason Petho]

I probably didn't phrase my first statement quite right.....I meant to say each hq will check up the line to the next until the highest is reached(hence more checks). I am also under the impression that a unit that goes low on ammo from firing can only resupply from it's parent hq and if it is not on the map there is no possibility of resupply....also those units do not check against base supply..........if they do why bother to put any hqs in at all.............just let all the units check against the base ammo level and if it is like 80% that's better than the 50% range of most hqs.........this must be a change from the original cs supply rules and if it is it will impact the game big time. Not argueing just trying to figure out what I thot I had spent years figuring out before :-)

VE

No, it is the same supply system as before. I think the CS manual didn't explain it properly, hence the general confusion.

If a Battalion HQ is low on ammo, it will perform a check against the Regiment HQ (if present), if the Regiment isn't there, it will use the Division.

If it passes, the Battalion HQ will regain supply.

If it fails, it will conduct another check against the base ammo level.

If it passes, the Battalion HQ will regain supply.

If it fails, the Battalion HQ will remain out of supply for the turn.

This is why I prefer to have low base ammo levels in my scenarios and campaigns, to ensure the player is using the supply system properly. Having full HQ's with an 80+ base ammo level is pretty pointless.

Jason Petho

[Herr Straße Laufer]

One thing I would say is, I've played a fair few games where I can't believe the poor attention to oob's. For example, getting disrupted units galore, only to find there are no leaders around to help raise their morale!

Disruptions and morale are more a factor of the individual units. Adding leaders is a matter of work, and taste, of the designer.
"Poor attention" to the oob? :chin:
Maybe the designer wanted it that way and you (the player) will have to live with it?
Units with high morale have a better chance of coming back on their own. Maybe the designer wanted to show that?
Who knows?
But, it does not have to be "poor attention" by a designer. It could be by design. :rolleyes:

I'd rather take time to get it as good as I can before throwing out sub-standard scenarios to all.

Thanks! You could also put it in the H2H testing area. If you had balance and fun in mind, and their are those who would help by giving you honest feedback?

But, remember, a designer needs to work to get a scenario through H2H testing? :smoke:



HSL

---

No, it is the same supply system as before. I think the CS manual didn't explain it properly, hence the general confusion.

If a Battalion HQ is low and ammo, it will perform a check against the Regiment HQ (if present), if the Regiment isn't there, it will use the Division.

If it passes, the Battalion HQ will regain supply.

If it fails, it will conduct another check against the base ammo level.

If it passes, the Battalion HQ will regain supply.

If it fails, the Battalion HQ will remain out of supply for the turn.

This is why I prefer to have low base ammo levels in my scenarios and campaigns, to ensure the player is using the supply system properly. Having full HQ's with an 80+ base ammo level is pretty pointless.

Jason Petho

Earl, I think what Jason wrote is what I know of how the supply system works. :smoke:



HSL

[K K Rossokolski]

Peter, you said earlier ....."However, whilst appreciating your comments, if you are creating hypothetical scenarios, then surely a guideline is needed?"

:stir: Raises an interesting point...Does one need established or historically based guidelines in a hypothetical scenario? :stir:

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Raises an interesting point...Does one need established or historically based guidelines in a hypothetical scenario? :stir:

If Peter wants to design a hypothetical, but historically based, scenario he might have wanted to follow some guidelines?
But, I see your point Rod. Glad you asked that question! :smoke:

He might find, as they did at the Alamo, that what you want is not always historically what you had? :eek1:



HSL

[Glint]

Yes, good point Rod. If hypothetical, one could use all types of design. I however, would prefer to design scenarios that are based on fairly realistic forces or mixes and my own designed maps rather than actual places, that's why I call them Hypothetical. The guidelines here so far have given me some valuable guidance. I used to have the details before but lost them.

[Von Earlmann]

One thing I would say is, I've played a fair few games where I can't believe the poor attention to oob's. For example, getting disrupted units galore, only to find there are no leaders around to help raise their morale!

Disruptions and morale are more a factor of the individual units. Adding leaders is a matter of work, and taste, of the designer.
"Poor attention" to the oob? :chin:
Maybe the designer wanted it that way and you (the player) will have to live with it?
Units with high morale have a better chance of coming back on their own. Maybe the designer wanted to show that?
Who knows?
But, it does not have to be "poor attention" by a designer. It could be by design. :rolleyes:

I'd rather take time to get it as good as I can before throwing out sub-standard scenarios to all.

Thanks! You could also put it in the H2H testing area. If you had balance and fun in mind, and their are those who would help by giving you honest feedback?

But, remember, a designer needs to work to get a scenario through H2H testing? :smoke:



HSL

---

No, it is the same supply system as before. I think the CS manual didn't explain it properly, hence the general confusion.

If a Battalion HQ is low and ammo, it will perform a check against the Regiment HQ (if present), if the Regiment isn't there, it will use the Division.

If it passes, the Battalion HQ will regain supply.

If it fails, it will conduct another check against the base ammo level.

If it passes, the Battalion HQ will regain supply.

If it fails, the Battalion HQ will remain out of supply for the turn.

This is why I prefer to have low base ammo levels in my scenarios and campaigns, to ensure the player is using the supply system properly. Having full HQ's with an 80+ base ammo level is pretty pointless.

Jason Petho

Earl, I think what Jason wrote is what I know of how the supply system works. :smoke:



HSL

That is correct for HQ units but individual units check for supply differently.........I am pretty sure if a tank platoon,infantry platoon etc goes low on ammo due to firing the only way it can recover supply is thru it's own parent hq and if it is not there it will not be able to regain supply....as far as I can dedeuce the only units that check against base levels are HQs and indirect fire units.

VE