firing at hex with multiple targets

[PawelM]

I would not be surprised if someone brought htis one up before.
When firing at a hex with multiple targets there is a small flaw in my view. I think in my view easiet will be to use an example. I always assumed 1 strength point in tank platoon represents 1 tank. If we take a shermann platoon of 3sp and fire at it one shot with panther tank from close distance i have chance based on the combat reolution table (and roll of dice) to inflict more than 1sp loss with a single shot, i.e. Based on attack defence ratio. Now, this is not possible to achieve when we have 3 platoons with 1sp strength each. I can fire at one at the time. Would anyone agree it would make more sense the losses were sprea randomly across all same type units in the hex? Say i decide to fire at the tanks in a hex. In real battlefield this is how it would wrk say i decide to fire at tanks with my AT. Guners do not care if they are from the same platoon. If they hit 2 tanks you will not say 1 does not count because it wa not from the platoon you decided to fire in the first place. Same if i want to use my MG to fire at number of infantry platoon they will fire at peaople not think if they are from the same unit. Therefore i think when firing at hex with number of platoons the attacker shoul only be able to choose the unit type to fire at. And the losses shoul be randomly spread among all target units.

i am interested to hear what other think about this.

[PawelM]

To cut my point short, as is at the moment it is better to have strength points distributed over more units when being fired at. This is a bit unrealistic. Also one shoot be able to select if they aiming say at inf or tanks rather specific platoon. This is more realistic' see my earlier post.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

To cut my point short, as is at the moment it is better to have strength points distributed over more units when being fired at. This is a bit unrealistic. Also one shoot be able to select if they aiming say at inf or tanks rather specific platoon. This is more realistic' see my earlier post.

How did you arrive at the thought that direct fire, targets a hex (and all the units that are in it)?
Or, am I missing some subtle point? :dunno:

Opt fire needs a unit moving or firing to trigger it. Opt fire is direct and targets each unit in the hex individually?

Indirect fire targets all the units in the hex and applies attacks one at a time, at each unit in the hex.



HSL

[PawelM]

To cut my point short, as is at the moment it is better to have strength points distributed over more units when being fired at. This is a bit unrealistic. Also one shoot be able to select if they aiming say at inf or tanks rather specific platoon. This is more realistic' see my earlier post.

How did you arrive at the thought that direct fire, targets a hex (and all the units that are in it)?
Or, am I missing some subtle point? :dunno:

Opt fire needs a unit moving or firing to trigger it. Opt fire is direct and targets each unit in the hex individually?

Indirect fire targets all the units in the hex and applies attacks one at a time, at each unit in the hex.



HSL

HSL,

agreed with what you say that direct fire targets individual units and indirect fire targets a hex.

What I am after is concerning direct fire. What I mean is that as the game engine works and you have say 5 tanks in a hex (i.e. 5 strength points). It will make a difference if you have 5 tank platoons of strength 1 each or say 1 platoon of strength 5. In both cases you still have 5 tanks occupying a hex of 250m. However in case of direct fire it will make a huge difference what losses you can inflict in both scenarios. For instance let's take the situation that my firing will be considered at 3:1 in the combat results table. It means I have 5% chance of inducing 2sp loss if I do fire directly at the target. If 5 tanks belong to a single platoon then (with a help of the dice roll) I can hit 2sp, i.e. 2 tanks with a "single shot" of my attacking unit. The story is different if 5 tanks occuping the hex belong to 5 different platoons. In this case the game requires me to select which platoon I want to fire at. In this case even if the roll dice yields 2 sp hit inficted on my target, the actual "kill" will be only 1sp as the target platoon size is only 1sp which means is eliminated. So the point is, there are 5 tanks filling the same space in both cases. What I meant in real life the firing units will not be firing at sinlge platoon at the time-as it is in the game. In addition there is inconsitency in the fier result on the same number of SPs depending on their distibution over number of platoons.

Is my point brought in for a discussion a bit clearer now?

[Askari19]

As the situation Pawel describes occured - repeatedly - in our last game, I know just what he's talking about and it is a very good point. I had several platoons of M4A1's reduced to one tank each over the course of the scenario. They were at times stacked together, and received fire from AT guns, Sturmgeschutzen, infantry panzerfaust, and 88's in conditions where I would have expected (and indeed had previously experienced) multiple losses from a single fire. But of course, regardless of the die roll, where one platoon = one step, I never lost more than one step to a single fire action, thanks to the game mechanic of direct fire targeting a single unit. There are drawbacks to running about with a bunch of one-step platoons, but they certainly help you weather a storm of fire.

[PawelM]

As the situation Pawel describes occured - repeatedly - in our last game, I know just what he's talking about and it is a very good point. I had several platoons of M4A1's reduced to one tank each over the course of the scenario. They were at times stacked together, and received fire from AT guns, Sturmgeschutzen, infantry panzerfaust, and 88's in conditions where I would have expected (and indeed had previously experienced) multiple losses from a single fire. But of course, regardless of the die roll, where one platoon = one step, I never lost more than one step to a single fire action, thanks to the game mechanic of direct fire targeting a single unit. There are drawbacks to running about with a bunch of one-step platoons, but they certainly help you weather a storm of fire.

Yes this is exactly what i meant.

If we go further, in real battlefield situation the firing unit does not select target based on the unit association. When in the game in the case of direct fire a player makes a decision which platoon is targeted. I think one thing which would make firing at a hex with multiple targets more realistic would be to make the attacker choose the type of units to be fired at, i.e. Rather than a specifix platoon. This would be close to real battlefield.

Such a selectio of target by type ( and not by platoon) would allow the losses inflicted by a direst fire to be randomly distributed among the platoons of the same typ currently in the hex. This would also allow to remove the problem i was trying to highlight in my previous post.

does anyone agree tha such a method of selecting direct fire target by type rather than platoon is more realistic as well as the fact that losses are randomly distributed among the targets of the selected type occupying the same hex?

[Kool Kat]

If we go further, in real battlefield situation the firing unit does not select target based on the unit association. When in the game in the case of direct fire a player makes a decision which platoon is targeted. I think one thing which would make firing at a hex with multiple targets more realistic would be to make the attacker choose the type of units to be fired at, i.e. Rather than a specific platoon. This would be close to real battlefield.

I need to better understand your proposal. In regards to direct fire at multiple units in a hex... are you referencing only spotted enemy units or all units in the hex?

Such a selection of target by type ( and not by platoon) would allow the losses inflicted by a direst fire to be randomly distributed among the platoons of the same typ currently in the hex. This would also allow to remove the problem i was trying to highlight in my previous post.

We have that capability already - in setting the opt fire for individual units? e.g. Hard targets, soft vehicles, and other targets. :chin:

Again, I'm not sure I completely understand your proposal... but if we selected a direct fire target by type (and not by platoon)... would not that function "encourage" players to stack more units (of the same type) in a hex... so that direct fire would be more dissipated among all these units of the same type... instead of being concentrated on a single platoon? That practice would go against sound combat doctrine on a battlefield? :chin:

does anyone agree that such a method of selecting direct fire target by type rather than platoon is more realistic as well as the fact that losses are randomly distributed among the targets of the selected type occupying the same hex?

Is it more realistic? I don't have a clue? :chin:

Maybe, the better question to be asking... how would such a direct fire proposal impact game mechanics... and is it a desirable change... even if it is "more realistic?" :chin:

[PawelM]

KK,

Currently there is disconnection between what a single fire action can achieve depending on the distrbution of SPs among the platoons occupying single hex. I hope this is clear from my example above.

As a solution to that i proposed the selection of unit type when firing in your own phase not oppFire. The loses would be shared by units in the hex which are visible. The logis behind this is a firing unit at say 3 infantry platoons using MG will fire at all peple in view. The target will not be picke by unit affiliation. This could be represented by the above loss application.

Is it clearer now what I meant?

[Kool Kat]

KK,

Currently there is disconnection between what a single fire action can achieve depending on the distrbution of SPs among the platoons occupying single hex. I hope this is clear from my example above.

As a solution to that i proposed the selection of unit type when firing in your own phase not oppFire. The loses would be shared by units in the hex which are visible. The logis behind this is a firing unit at say 3 infantry platoons using MG will fire at all peple in view. The target will not be picke by unit affiliation. This could be represented by the above loss application.

Is it clearer now what I meant?

Yes. It is clearer to me! :)

[PawelM]

KK,

I am glad I managed to make it more clear. My proposal to address an issue was aimed to induce a discussion. Propably this small issue will not ever be addressed but i still it is an interesting thing to consider. Maybe someone has a better idea for a fix or thinks it is perfectly fine as it for whatever reason not knwn to me .