Looking for strong opponents winSPWW2 v4.5 and winSPMBT v5.5

[Machean]

Personally I think the use of Z-fire has been overly exploited by players with a more competative stance. I think there is more than enough supression built into the game to give you an edge if you use it correctly. Like artillery barrages and just normal fire with machineguns and Sp guns. They usually add alot of supression to nearby hexes when you fire at a unit. Z fire in my oppinion should or could be used when you are in an ambush situation. Say for instance you are rumbling along a road with some tanks and infantry or just advancing over open terrain with some infantry and suddenly your clever opponent opens fire at you from conceled positions usually you wont be able to see all units firing at you and in respons when it's your turn you will try to rally your panicked forces and then could use some z-fire to lay down covering fire in areas where you thought the enemy was firing from on what you could tell from the turn playback. It would depict the panic your men are suffering from suddenly coming under fire and seeing friendlies being shot up left and right. Your men would fire blindly into areas where they think the enemy is and ofc lay smoke if they can hold their heads cold. That would be a realistic situation to use the z-fire. But when just advacning and firing into every bush or cluster of trees you see is just very unrealistic and would compeletely spoil the element of surprise if you would stumble upon an enemy. And what a waste of ammo! Unfortunately the z-fire has been a weakness in the game that has been exploited. Thats the nature of man unfortunately we find shortcuts in everything and use situations to gain advantage even in games! Everyone wants to win right?

[Leo]

Each player tries to use those rules, which most of all are pleasant to it and answer his ideas of realness. Same about z-fire. I can use different rules of conducting battle if they arrange both sides...

[Oche]

Personally I think the use of Z-fire has been overly exploited by players with a more competative stance. I think there is more than enough supression built into the game to give you an edge if you use it correctly. Like artillery barrages and just normal fire with machineguns and Sp guns. They usually add alot of supression to nearby hexes when you fire at a unit. Z fire in my oppinion should or could be used when you are in an ambush situation. Say for instance you are rumbling along a road with some tanks and infantry or just advancing over open terrain with some infantry and suddenly your clever opponent opens fire at you from conceled positions usually you wont be able to see all units firing at you and in respons when it's your turn you will try to rally your panicked forces and then could use some z-fire to lay down covering fire in areas where you thought the enemy was firing from on what you could tell from the turn playback. It would depict the panic your men are suffering from suddenly coming under fire and seeing friendlies being shot up left and right. Your men would fire blindly into areas where they think the enemy is and ofc lay smoke if they can hold their heads cold. That would be a realistic situation to use the z-fire. But when just advacning and firing into every bush or cluster of trees you see is just very unrealistic and would compeletely spoil the element of surprise if you would stumble upon an enemy. And what a waste of ammo! Unfortunately the z-fire has been a weakness in the game that has been exploited. Thats the nature of man unfortunately we find shortcuts in everything and use situations to gain advantage even in games! Everyone wants to win right?

I absolutely agree. Advancing and firing into every hex is utterly unrealistic, i might as well go play Command and Conquer RTS series instead and i may find more realism there. The only instance i use the Z fire is when either i receive some hidden fire that i fire on the suspected hex direction or firing into a hex where i had already seen some units. Being "unrealistic" must have been the main reason why in Single Player Mode since Steel Panthers I, the AI has never been coded into the gameplay engine to use the Z fire rule (besides the fact that it is handcrafted for Human vs Human purpose).

But then again as you said, everybody wants to win

[Leo]

Everyone wants to win right?

Right! Some players aren't able correct operate Z-fire and can't win with him. After defeat, they go to forum and much talks about unrealness and cowboys. They wants to win too...

Some players use strange rule "Absolutely NO any Z-fire" and too much tells about "cowboy's style of game" and "unrealness of Z-fire". Where you take this nonsense? Watch documentary films about war, read books! Suppressing (not aimed) fire was very often and widely used in WW2 (and all 20 century!), especially by MG's and various guns.

I was at war in Tajikistan in 1992 (I served in mechanized infantry coy) and all we very often used suppressing fire, everywhere where could. Very often! I personally fired hundreds bullets by "Z-fire". Our MG guys shoot thousands bullets, all not-aimed! You speak about what reality? About "Reality of your pleasant game" or about true reality?

I think that Z-fire feature in Steel Panthers series very accurately and exactly simulate suppressing fire.

I can accept some reasonable restrictions of Z-fire, for more balance. But don't told me "Playing with Z-fire is unrealistic!". It is simply ridiculous!

[jadpanther]

Everyone wants to win right?

Right! Some players aren't able correct operate Z-fire and can't win with him. After defeat, they go to forum and much talks about unrealness and cowboys. They wants to win too...

Some players use strange rule "Absolutely NO any Z-fire" and too much tells about "cowboy's style of game" and "unrealness of Z-fire". Where you take this nonsense? Watch documentary films about war, read books! Suppressing (not aimed) fire was very often and widely used in WW2 (and all 20 century!), especially by MG's and various guns.

I was at war in Tajikistan in 1992 (I served in mechanized infantry coy) and all we very often used suppressing fire, everywhere where could. Very often! I personally fired hundreds bullets by "Z-fire". Our MG guys shoot thousands bullets, all not-aimed! You speak about what reality? About "Reality of your pleasant game" or about true reality?

I think that Z-fire feature in Steel Panthers series very accurately and exactly simulate suppressing fire.

I can accept some reasonable restrictions of Z-fire, for more balance. But don't told me "Playing with Z-fire is unrealistic!". It is simply ridiculous!

As much as I dont like it, Z-fire that is, I have to agree with Leo that Z-fire is nessesary for the game. But it does seem to be overused these days. There have been some interesting rules to limit it, they can easily be negotiated.

Jad

[Leo]

Jad
Sure, they can.
For example, I like rules, written to me by Buckaroo:

Z-fire range limited to 20 hexes or less (<1,001 m). Z-fire allowed only by units whose slot 1 weapon is a machine gun (MG) or cannon (e.g., tank, mortar, rocket) or shape charge (e.g., pzschreck, bazooka). For example, rifle squads may not z-fire, even though they have a LMG in slot 2. Z-firing units may simultaneously fire slot 2-4 weapons regardless of their type. Arty may z-fire further than 1,000 m ONLY if the firing unit has LOS on the target hex at the moment of firing.

Resonable and easy limits! Easy to use, easy to remember. Z-fire by MG and Cannon units is quite enough. Usually most Z-fire do infantry units, but if we exclude it - it still enough tactical suppression from other units.

[Gila]

Jad
Sure, they can.
For example, I like rules, written to me by Buckaroo:

Z-fire range limited to 20 hexes or less (<1,001 m). Z-fire allowed only by units whose slot 1 weapon is a machine gun (MG) or cannon (e.g., tank, mortar, rocket) or shape charge (e.g., pzschreck, bazooka). For example, rifle squads may not z-fire, even though they have a LMG in slot 2. Z-firing units may simultaneously fire slot 2-4 weapons regardless of their type. Arty may z-fire further than 1,000 m ONLY if the firing unit has LOS on the target hex at the moment of firing.

Resonable and easy limits! Easy to use, easy to remember. Z-fire by MG and Cannon units is quite enough. Usually most Z-fire do infantry units, but if we exclude it - it still enough tactical suppression from other units.

Those rules are vague complicated and easily broken,how can one tell the distance or location from random z-fire?

Old school players know how z-fire should be used and has recently gotton to the point of ridiculasness,too bad as it's killing this club.

[Walrus]

Actually, speaking as an Old School player...I quite like those z-fire rule ideas of Buckaroo's.

It limits the z-fire to area support type weapons and stops every infantry squad lighting up with all their shots in every turn. That alone is an improvement on the annoying z-fire situations I have been forced to play through.

I prefer all z-fire to be in LOS, or just the edge of it...but the 1000m limit is OK too.

Of course it's going to be hard to be sure if someone is firing from 21 hex away but good players should be able to agree to a rule set and stick to it. If you don't think that player is working within the rules...don't play them again...easy solution eh.

The same discussion has often been had re. arty limits. There is reality...and then there is Steel panthers and the quest for a good, challenging and fun battle.
Some rules can help make that happen but you'll never make everyone happy I guess.

Interesting to see this debate...but you guys should remember that each opinion is valid and there should be room to agree to disagree.
Maintaining your decorum in a forum is far more important than trying to win the internets with your version of correct

Happy Battles

[Leo]

I do so:

By default, I don't demand any rules of restriction of Z-fire at all and I prefer to play without any restrictions. But, if my opponent wants to play with some Z-fire restrictions, he speaks to me about them, and we discuss it. If its rules seem me reasonable, simple and playable, I accept them and we can quietly play.

I won't accept too elaborate and difficult rules of 10-20 points of a ban of Z-fire, it is silly and tiresome. If I'll play with 5 opponents at the same time, and everyone will have own difficult rules of restriction of Z-fire, I will get confused and my brain will blow up.

Also I never will accept a silly and unrealistic rule "We play without Z-fire at all".

Such rule cardinally changes game, and these are not Steel Panthers, it is becomes absolutely other game, a special mod for those who isn't able to win with Z-fire.

I never won't join to "club of Z-fire haters".

[Leo]

Those rules are vague complicated and easily broken,how can one tell the distance or location from random z-fire?

It is general guideline, but not absolutely strict rule. Sure, sometimes player can casually fire at 21, 22, even 25 hexes. It isn't terrible. When player notices it, simply stop to continue Z-firing over 20 hexes, or transfer your Z-fire on a zone less than 21 hexes.

But if player will regular Z-fire at 34, 40 or 60 hexes - it is obvious break of rule: "Z-fire range limited to 20 hexes or less".

So simply.