What ever happened to the spotting system?

[cattle grin]

Hi! I'm an old fan of the original cm series and noticed that now it's sooo easy to spot my opponents units in the new cm.

I'm playing through the Courage campaign that came with the game, and right now I'm on the mission where you have to attack down the ridge of a hill to rescue a cut-off platoon. The weather is rain. An MG42 opens up on me from about 330-350m. He's in woods terrain, about 8-16m deep, with foxholes and brushy ground. It takes only two bursts before my men, who are showing the taking cover animation, to make the full spot.

In another game, I was dismayed to find that my squad "Hiding" in the middle of a grain field (50m or so deep) was taking mortar fire on turn one! The attacker had seen them even in setup, even though they were starting about 800m away.

Why did they change the spotting so that is so difficult now for defenders to hide? Is this more realistic or is this to make the game more fun?

[Compass Rose]

[cattle grin]

thanks, that's cute :)

you guys know if this is a realism thing or something else? i really have no idea, not having any military experience. just a gamer.

thanks

[raz_atoth]

Well,the spotting system may be tricky sometimes.Not often enough to be a real problem,though.

I've seen more often than not cases in which it's quite easy for the defender to hide.Actually,if you'll play long enough this might be a source of frustration :) The defenders will be under fire,they will be pinned or just cowering and won't be spotted by the firing unit anymore. Who,obviously,will stop firing.
I played CMx1 extensively but i must say the spotting system in CMx2 is definitely better.You'll just have to take into consideration a lot of variables. A veteran unit will spot better than a green one. A full squad will spot better than a 2 men scout unit. A rested unit will spot better than a tired unit. A squad who's standing still will spot better than a squad who's running. A crouched unit will spot better than a unit in the prone position and a unit standing up will spot better than a crouched one. I guess you got the picture ;) Last but not least the skill level at which the battle is played also counts.I recommend you play using Warrior rather than Veteran/Basic Training.

[cattle grin]

how would I setup a machine gun in a foxhole so that it can fire on attackers without getting spotted by them? (like we used to do in cmbb)

[raz_atoth]

I don't think that's possible. Except for a narrow few cases. If your opponent is sending a team/scout team running towards your mg you might kill them without having your position revealed.
In 98% cases,though,your opponent will have friendly troops in overwatch,which will spot your mg as soon as it begins to fire.

[cattle grin]

Damn... i'm shocked. Thanks for the feedback though!

[cattle grin]

what do you guys use hmgs for now that they can't fire without being spotted? are they worth having at all?

[raz_atoth]

Just to clarify... HMGs CAN fire without being spotted. I've been in a couple of circumstances at the receiving end without knowing from where exactly the fire was coming. It depends on the distance between the hgm and it's target and the number of enemy troops you have ahead. Probably there are other factors to consider as well (the quality of enemy troops,the direction they're looking at,what they're doing etc..).

You can expect to stay hidden if you fire at a enemy squad running 500m away. If you have a company of infantry at 100m coming your way,your HMG will be spotted almost instantly. Which i guess is a realistically behavior.

How to efficiently use it? Put it behind bocage and use if for long range fire against infantry. If you see tanks coming you'll be probably better if you hold fire. Change it's position every minute at least,and leave your opponent waste mortar shells on it's previous locations. Don't expect for your HMGs to inflict a huge amount of casualties,expect for the enemy forces to be pinned instead.

[cattle grin]

I've never been able to pin infantry from any range where a squad couldnt do the same tho... i'm thinking in terms of the points the cost. is there something they do really well relative to the purchase cost?