Several Moscow 42 Questions

[Nitram Draw]

^ I guess it depends on how fast you want to get past the bunker. It can take a while to totally eliminate a surrounded unit

[Liebchen]

^ I guess it depends on how fast you want to get past the bunker. It can take a while to totally eliminate a surrounded unit

I prefer to make the bunker's occupants decide to abandon their positions and make a break for it. Punish them enough and they'll run. It's a lot easier than killing every last occupant.

[ComradeP]

Regarding bunkers, my experience seems to be sort of the opposite of what some of you are saying thus far, and the more I play, the more worried I become regarding the Axis losses.

Whenever I concentrate about a Rifle regiment+artillery against a single Axis battalion, I can destroy the defender in about a day, sometimes less. From a mathematical perspective (losses suffered compared with amount of turns) making a stand seems fairly suicidal for the Axis. This worries me. Even units in bunkers can take similar losses than those in other hexes, because many bunkers are not actually in a good terrain hex near Kalinin and thus only seem to give a +20 bonus, which is peanuts when facing an entire Rifle regiment. With the alternate assault rules, on the other hand, you can't really scratch bunkers. There doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground.

From a mathematical perspective, Axis losses don't seem to be sustainable. Even assuming you can't assault a unit, you can generally hit them with a number of artillery units each turn (provided you plan things right) so they'll still take 10-15 losses per turn, which means they still die in 2-3 days (depending on whether you can assault them). It's like in the tutorial, but all along the front: you can't advance far on day 1, but you destroy numerous battalions. In the tutorial, I can't move more than a couple of kilometres into the German line, but I destroy 3-4 German battalions in 1 day.

Although losses from single attacks often still feel like they're on the low side, daily losses can be quite high.

[Volcano Man]

The main benefit of bunkers is NOT -20% penalty to enemy fire, rather, it is fact that the defenders inside become hard targets and the +10 defense, which means that units with only a soft combat factor (ie. early war infantry) cannot fire on them at all, and are forced to assault. Now of course, in PzC as in real life, at the basic level everything is really just rock, paper, scissors -- so if you have troops defending in a bunker, then the counter is to disrupt with armor and then assault, but if no enemy armor is present in the area then the defenders can hold out for quite some time, so really it all depends on the situation. Having said that though, I wouldn't hold to the last man in any bunker, anywhere, in any PzC game, unless the attacker consists only of pure infantry, as it never turns out good to hold to last man in almost every case (unless we are talking about fortresses in FWW which have their own supply sources) . Bunkers (and pillboxes) should only be used to anchor a line. Where the enemy pushes through a fortified line, then you will likely have to withdraw from the bunkers adjacent to that area and flex backwards, generally speaking of course.

Of course you might be inclined to hold the last man in a bunker area if it is because you are bringing up mobile reserves that might be 4 or 5 turns away. Also keep in mind that you can construct your own bunkers now too, which is something that I am still getting used to doing.

Awesome game BTW! :)

[76mm]

It's the main reason I've only glanced at the full campaign scenario thus far: Playing a game where the German battalions drop left and right each turn wouldn't be much fun after a while.

ComradeP, thanks for your input, interesting. I think my experience is a little different from yours; first, the regiments I use disrupt pretty quickly, and generally only one battalion, if that, is undisrupted.

Artillery is the key, as you point out. I can pound on some bunkers and maybe cause 1 casualty per turn, maybe not even that. In my (limited) experience, artillery only works if I pour massive amounts on the bunker, thus depriving other parts of the front which need arty for an advance.

[76mm]

I have a couple of questions about isolation issues, and a comment about FoW:

1) According to my reading of the manual, if enemy units are encircled by my ZOCs (with no enemy units nullifying my ZOCs), they should be isoloated. Yet I often notice situations in which enemy units are thus surrounded, and there is no supply source within the area, but the units are not isolated; am I missing something? I play with the VST rule.

2) Similarly, once a unit is isolated, I thought that once it fires it should also become Low Ammo, but I notice that often this does not occur--enemy units will be isolated but do not become low on ammo even after a couple of turns.

The FoW comment: I generally really like this game system, but don't like how FoW is treated at all--every night, and some days, all enemy units which are not adjacent simply completely disappear, and given the size of the scenarios it is simply impossible to remember which hexes had enemy units last turn, etc. I really wish that last known enemy locations would remain as some kind of greyed out counter, or a question mark or something, just so that we had some idea about where the bad guys were last we knew. Surely a Sov unit will not "forget" that there was a panzer battalion 1000 in front of them the previous evening, but that is exactly what seems to happen in this game.

[Strela]

As far as isolation, please note every large objective (1,000 points) has a 30 point supply source. This is to allow units to hedgehog (as in Hitler's stand fast orders or Stalin's not one step back). Was there an objective inside the area you had encircled?

I have seen units going to low ammo under isolation in Moscow '42, do you have any specific examples you can share? It's fatal for D morale Soviets.

FOW has always been as you said. There is an order you can give called 'Patrolling' that will keep all units two hexes away visible, no matter the actual visibility range or terrain. It also nullifies partisans. I can't see in the manual what this does to your fatigue state though. You do need to use this because maybe your Panzer Battalion drove away overnight and the only way to know before sunrise would be putting patrols out etc.

David

[ComradeP]

If the Soviets are in clear hexes, many units will disrupt over time, but in many cases you can move them into woods/forest or village hexes where they get some protection from fire. It can take some time to get a good concentration of forces, but when you get it and the grinding starts, German losses are high (yours are too, but you can take them).

The main reason I'm having the historical trouble with getting Kalinin Front going is mostly their awkard initial setup (including having a spread-out frontline with the HQ not near the front in the areas where you want to make a push) and the fact that a number of units around Kalinin are "fixed." The Germans in bunkers in clear terrain start taking higher losses by about turn 3, after a couple of assaults. 22nd Army's not in a good position to attack the German frontline and many units will disrupt, but 29th Army can do some good damage and when you've shifted the 250th Rifle Division west and the 262nd Rifle Division activates, 31st Army can get going.

By the way 76mm: if you're interested, we could play a PBEM game. Maybe Solnechnogorsk (the Soviet human variant, although the regular version might also be fine), which is sort of an extended version of the tutorial. If you want to, I'll play as the Axis.

[76mm]

Strela,

Thanks for the responses. There is no objective in the encircled area, just about 12-15 hexes of field and forest (and German units). I will try to post a screen shot in the next day or so. There is another spot on the map with the same issue; seems to be surrounded but not isolated, will try to post that as well.

I have seen units go Low Ammo as well, but some units do not seem to do so, don't know what.

For FoW, I understand that the unit might not be there any more, but it would certainly be helpful to at least know where enemy units where according to my lastest information. I will try patrolling, that will help a bit.

---

ComradeP, too busy right now for a game, but maybe we can try a short one in a couple weeks. Not sure if I care which side, I would have to look at the scenario.

[raizer]

one of the things to keep in mind when patrolling at night...break your guys up. If you have german bats that are full up in strength-ie 4 companies attached, break one off. Patrol with that guy so the other 3 companies can rest. As long as you have 1 guy patrolling you will get the 2 hex viz. You can also patrol across river hexes. Also you can hit dig in first and then the patrol command...so you can have guys digging in and patrolling simultaneously. Same with bridge builders-hit dig first then bridge ops, I dont think the bridge guys suffer any penalties to build a bridge if they are digging in.