Several Moscow 42 Questions

[Strela]

Strela, I have another question--what is the rationale for locking so many of the Sov units for several days at the beginning of the campaign? (I didn't see the rationale in the designer's notes, sorry if I overlooked it). Is it simply how the Sovs decided to attack, or was there some compelling reason why these units could not attack? Or is it also an element of play balance?

All releases are based on the historical timing of attacks. ComradeP got it right for example in the south the Germans had decided to withdraw a day before the attacks started on Dec 7th and hence the Soviets are locked down for a day, while the Germans get a free move.

So importantly, there is no game balancing or other artiface here, but rather just the historical release of each force.

If you look at the history document after the designers notes section you should be able to read up what was happening in each sector.

David

[ComradeP]

Why do some German divisions have a (sometimes split up, but combinable) Panzerjaeger Abteilung (useful) and others companies (not nearly as useful) assigned to regiments which, if I'm interpreting the manual correctly, can't combine because their parent unit is an infantry regiment instead of a Panzerjaeger Abteilung?

[Liquid_Sky]

If a unit can't combine into a parent unit, it is usually because they have different equipment. A lot of recon battalions will be like that, with one unit on motorcycles, another on horse, a third without any transport at all....that sort of thing.

Having said that, there is no reason to think that you are penalized if the unit does not combine into a bigger one. It will not suffer extra fatigue for being deployed (since it has no parent). And you gain the flexibility of moving it wherever you like.

You can see if a unit is deployed, you will see a [1] after the unit name, when you right click to see the info behind the unit portrait. If the unit is formed up it will have a +++ after the name on the unit portrait, and a [2] or [3] (or however many units are combined), when you right click.

[ComradeP]

The majority of the Panzerjaeger companies use 37mm guns. To me, it seems odd that they (and only most of them) are assigned to infantry regiments. For the infantry guns, it's understandable, but less so for the Panzerjaeger Abteilung.

The problem with having them as companies is that they're too vulnerable (because units can be targeted individually when in a stack) and too weak, which sort of promotes a strategy of parking them in the rear somewhere because otherwise I'd be giving the Soviets easy points.

Also: I see that, presumably for balance reasons, Katyusha units have 8 instead of 36 launchers. Was the range of Nebelwerfer units also decreased for balance reasons, to avoid downsizing the units?

[76mm]

The problem with having them as companies is that they're too vulnerable (because units can be targeted individually when in a stack) and too weak, which sort of promotes a strategy of parking them in the rear somewhere because otherwise I'd be giving the Soviets easy points.

I've wondered about this too...granted I'm playing against the AI, but the hordes of "x-sized" German AT and artillery units manning the front line are easy prey for my rifle battaltions, and they are getting wiped out by the dozen. That said, this fate seems fairly realistic to me, or at least would be realistic if these units were deployed in this manner.

I haven't read extensively about this period of the war, although I would guess that German outposts generally consisted of a combined-arms force of some infantry with maybe some AT guns and infantry/artillery tubes as well. One limitation of this engine seems to be that units have to be made up of men, or guns, but not both.

[Strela]

The majority of the Panzerjaeger companies use 37mm guns. To me, it seems odd that they (and only most of them) are assigned to infantry regiments. For the infantry guns, it's understandable, but less so for the Panzerjaeger Abteilung.

The problem with having them as companies is that they're too vulnerable (because units can be targeted individually when in a stack) and too weak, which sort of promotes a strategy of parking them in the rear somewhere because otherwise I'd be giving the Soviets easy points.

Also: I see that, presumably for balance reasons, Katyusha units have 8 instead of 36 launchers. Was the range of Nebelwerfer units also decreased for balance reasons, to avoid downsizing the units?

All units are done exactly as per the historic OB's. Infanterie Regiments had a generic AT company and the Division an independant PanzerJager Battalion. This equates to 6 companies in total (1 per regiment, 3 in the PzJ Battalion). They have been setup in the main to support the infantry and wherever possible put on the road to help them retreat. Unfortunately they are extremely hard to move in snow/frozen conditions particularly when off road. In a historical context this is correct.

The 37mm guns are of very marginal use (again as they were historically) and will be a pain to use in any form of a retreat.

As far as the katuyshas, only battalions were available at this time. Larger formations (regiments) only started to appear late in the winter/early spring.

The range for Nebelwerfers was adjusted by Ed Williams to balance out the fact that they actually have a minimum range that the game system doesn't handle. The current values are a compromise.

Hope that answers your questions.

David

[ComradeP]

Thanks.

I forgot about the organic AT guns. I had sort of expected those to be horsedrawn.

In WitE, 1941 Katyusha battalions (in the Western sense) have 12 Katyusha's, 3 batteries of 4 launchers each. Maybe that's their mid-late war TOE, however. I guess their low rate of fire/long reload time is abstracted by them having to setup after moving and perhaps in modified soft attack values. Unless I'm missing it, there doesn't seem to be a directly ROF-related value.

Aside from that, the only other peculiar things I noticed were that the German 86th ID is supposed to release on the 7th whilst it's actually active from turn 1 (a good thing, in my opinion) and that 2nd GCC is fixed on the same turn that 16th Army is released. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm guessing that could theoretically mean the 16th Army release overwrites the fix order (the release of the entirety of 16th Army is listed after the fix order for 2nd GCC in the Releases list), so maybe the fixing of 2nd GCC could happen 1 turn later.

There are also some "release through being spotted" units around Tula and northeast of there, which now activate 2 turns early (for the Germans) to 7 turns early (for the Soviets). The same applies to units of 16 Army, all of which are spotted by AT companies or other units that can't move out of their spotting range on turn 1 due to lack of MP's or being Fixed, which means they're spotted when the visibility increases to 2km.

The units:

-the Panzerjaeger company in 387, 104 (the elevation covers it in part, but it might be spotted by 1/26 GRR).
-the Panzerjaeger company in 392, 102 (pretty much doomed by default and even though it could normally move northeast along the road to avoid spotting the Guards, if the 28th SMG company moves up, it can't).
-the Panzerjaeger company in 356, 133.
-the Panzerjaeger company in 347, 137.
-9./III/Schuetzen GD in 438, 301.
-3.Krad Btl 3 in 439, 292 and the units in 437, 291 that are spotted by the Soviet unit in 437, 292, which could be moved south or southwest 1 hex to prevent it (not entirely sure if the Soviet unit south of the unit in 439, 292 can spot it, the elevation might prevent it).
-the units in 434, 290.
-the units in 427, 286.
-the units in 425, 284.
-1./Krad BtL 34 in 427, 282.
-the units in 429, 281.
-the units in 501, 272.
-the units in 504, 272.

The other units within 2 hex range can either be moved back or can't be spotted due to terrain. If you feel units activating early is a problem, you could consider increasing the distance between fixed units (in the south) or moving the units that can't move out of their hex on turn 1 back a bit.

[JDR Dragoon]

The range for Nebelwerfers was adjusted by Ed Williams to balance out the fact that they actually have a minimum range that the game system doesn't handle. The current values are a compromise.

Strange. In my DF85 OOB Editor it is possible to declare a minimum range for an artillery unit by using "/" (thus "9/3" means a maximum range of 9 and a minimum of 3). Or is the minimum range for a nebelwerfer less than a kilometer?

[ComradeP]

A quick Google search didn't turn up a minimum range for the 150mm version, but it seems the advised minimum range for the regular 280/320mm heavy launcher was over a kilometer and the rack mounted variant on the side of a halftrack about 400 meters. Still, a minimum range of 1 would be sensible I'd say.

The same could be said for Katyusha's. There are anecdotes of drivers plunging the frontwheels into a ditch to get sort of a direct fire weapon, but the cab would otherwise be in the way.

[Strela]

Thanks.

I forgot about the organic AT guns. I had sort of expected those to be horsedrawn.

In WitE, 1941 Katyusha battalions (in the Western sense) have 12 Katyusha's, 3 batteries of 4 launchers each. Maybe that's their mid-late war TOE, however. I guess their low rate of fire/long reload time is abstracted by them having to setup after moving and perhaps in modified soft attack values. Unless I'm missing it, there doesn't seem to be a directly ROF-related value.

Aside from that, the only other peculiar things I noticed were that the German 86th ID is supposed to release on the 7th whilst it's actually active from turn 1 (a good thing, in my opinion) and that 2nd GCC is fixed on the same turn that 16th Army is released. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm guessing that could theoretically mean the 16th Army release overwrites the fix order (the release of the entirety of 16th Army is listed after the fix order for 2nd GCC in the Releases list), so maybe the fixing of 2nd GCC could happen 1 turn later.

There are also some "release through being spotted" units around Tula and northeast of there, which now activate 2 turns early (for the Germans) to 7 turns early (for the Soviets). The same applies to units of 16 Army, all of which are spotted by AT companies or other units that can't move out of their spotting range on turn 1 due to lack of MP's or being Fixed, which means they're spotted when the visibility increases to 2km.

The units:

-the Panzerjaeger company in 387, 104 (the elevation covers it in part, but it might be spotted by 1/26 GRR).
-the Panzerjaeger company in 392, 102 (pretty much doomed by default and even though it could normally move northeast along the road to avoid spotting the Guards, if the 28th SMG company moves up, it can't).
-the Panzerjaeger company in 356, 133.
-the Panzerjaeger company in 347, 137.
-9./III/Schuetzen GD in 438, 301.
-3.Krad Btl 3 in 439, 292 and the units in 437, 291 that are spotted by the Soviet unit in 437, 292, which could be moved south or southwest 1 hex to prevent it (not entirely sure if the Soviet unit south of the unit in 439, 292 can spot it, the elevation might prevent it).
-the units in 434, 290.
-the units in 427, 286.
-the units in 425, 284.
-1./Krad BtL 34 in 427, 282.
-the units in 429, 281.
-the units in 501, 272.
-the units in 504, 272.

The other units within 2 hex range can either be moved back or can't be spotted due to terrain. If you feel units activating early is a problem, you could consider increasing the distance between fixed units (in the south) or moving the units that can't move out of their hex on turn 1 back a bit.

Hi ComradeP,

Think I needed you on the play test team

Firstly the 8 vehicle strength for the katuysha battalions is taken directly from Glantz's Colossus Reborn :

The NKO disbanded nine of the 14 rocket regiments in November and December 1941 and formed 28 separate Guards-Mortar battalions with two batteries (4 launchers each) each in their stead, further reducing their combat effectiveness. Page 308.

The release of 86 Infanterie Division is an artiface from the original test scenario (#1206_03 Klin-Solnechnogorsk Front Offensive), where half the division is locked down. I will correct this.

For 2nd Guards Cav Corp, this is a shortcut. Essentially the script releases all 16th Army & then locks 2nd Guards Cav Corp (which is a subordinate unit of 16th Army) to be released later on Dec 11th. It was easier to do the above than release each of 16th Army's formations individually.

As far as units in visual range when the visibility lifts to 2, I am not too concerned about it. There is a possibility of visibility going to 3 that would cause even more unlocks. I view this as local skirmishes/actions rather than full fledged offensive actions. If people feel it is an issue, I suggest they can adjust in the editor. If the concern is that AT guns etc are left in precarious positions then my response is that the Germans had been advancing up to this point and were blissfuly unaware of the coming Soviet offensive. It was only in the south that the Germans were preparing to retreat, in the north they were still trying to push forward and hence had a lot of equipment forward.

---

Strange. In my DF85 OOB Editor it is possible to declare a minimum range for an artillery unit by using "/" (thus "9/3" means a maximum range of 9 and a minimum of 3). Or is the minimum range for a nebelwerfer less than a kilometer?

Well you just taught me something. I can confirm this works as advertised in Panzer Campaigns. I will check with Ed on what the implications are if we adjust the values accordingly.

More to follow.

PS. I do appreciate all the feedback!

David