1st side vs 2nd side pros and cons

[JDR Dragoon]

In my experience, the advantage of the 1st Player is not so much that he gets the first Dawn turn, but that he gets the first Daylight turn. Visibility here might be as high as 4-5 hexes which means, that units the 2nd Player thought hidden are now suddenly visible and vulnerable. This requires some forethought on the part of the 2nd player. This also goes for preventing night fatigue. In essence, the 2nd players units have to sit chock still for 3 "moves": 1st Players Night Turn move, 2nd Players Night Turn move and 1st Players Dawn Turn move in order to avoid incurring any Night Fatigue and regain fatigue at the improved pace. If the unit fires or is fired upon during any of these steps, the game is up. For the 1st Player this is usually more easy to arrange (break contact at Dawn, stand still for own Night Turn and hope not to get hit during opponents Night Turn, resume normal movement at Dawn). All of this is of course exasperated by the fact, that the 1st Player will usually be the one with the offensive task and thus a greater number of units and opportunites to cycle these, while the 2nd Player (usually the overall defender) might not have this luxury.

Some scenarios also makes it possible for the 1st Player to start encircling and Isolating units on his first move, before the 2nd Player has had a chance to do anything. Needless to say, this doesn´t exactly makes the task of going 2nd any easier.

[Dog Soldier]

That's where 1 or more day per turn wargames are quite different from this, if only because even if the attacker breaks the line, it happens in a number of turns and you at least theoretically have more turns to prepare. It's not BOOM, the first player is in Minsk when you open the game and you're dozens of miles to the west or east.

I am not sure what you are exactly referring to here. A turn is a turn. Each side should get one.

It sounds like you are describing a design mismatch between time scale and distance scale allowing units to move far greater distances and still perform some game function(s) when they arrive at the desired location.

My point is time scale hours, days, months etc. should be properly matched with the scale of movement grid used in any game design (hexes, squares, zones etc.).

Thus a well thought out game will have both players capable of countering each others moves on the same time to distance ratio scale.

If not, it is poor game design that will not last long in the marketplace or you are playing someone who has perhaps manipulated the game mechanics under the hood.

Some scenarios also makes it possible for the 1st Player to start encircling and Isolating units on his first move, before the 2nd Player has had a chance to do anything. Needless to say, this doesn´t exactly makes the task of going 2nd any easier.

I would disagree here as it is the designer and play testers job to not have such easy meat available on turn one unless it is part of the original design idea. Such a mistake in design of a scenario would make it far less appealing to players.

FWIW,
Moving second has the advantage of last turn moved. Recapture of an important objective with no chance for the first player to respond can tip a game from one victory level to another. Seen this happen and have done it.

[ComradeP]

I am not sure what you are exactly referring to here. A turn is a turn. Each side should get one.

True, but take the following example, from WitE: mobile units have a maximum 50 MP's, non-mobile units 16 MP's due to the timescale. The attacker does pay MP's to enter enemy territory, but still has an advantage (usually about 9 hexes of movement when paying 2 MP's per hex). That means mobile units can quickly outrun/encircle infantry units.

Think of it like this: assume a unit in, say, Moscow '42 can make what would normally be 6 turns of movement in 1 turn or even 42 turns of movement (WitE has 1 week turns, I'm excluding PzC night turns). That's what you get at a 1 day per turn or greater timescale. An encirclement being formed is, due to the 2 hour turn scale, a tragedy in several stages. In WitE, it's just a tragedy as when you open the turn as the second player, you're essentially forced to deal with a fait accompli.

[Liquid_Sky]

One thing I like about going 2nd is that I am usually on the defence. And just before night, I can pull back off the front. And if I move onto a road, I can then go into travel mode, and scoot away during the night.

I have been hit by the last turn enemy recapturing objectives.. I have even lost a Major Victory to a draw (by one point!) by a last turn movement that would have thrown away most of his units if I had another turn. I have learned as the attacker to spend my last turn moving to avoid these last minute defensive rushes. It's actually not that hard. Breaking down Battalions into companies so he has to disrupt more units....or just piling into the objectives. Doesn't matter if he isolates you if he can't disrupt the hex.

[Dog Soldier]

ComradeP,
If you have an issue to discuss about WitE, you should post in the Grigsby OPS forum. You will most likely get a better response there than here.

Dog Soldier

[Mr Grumpy]

Some scenarios also makes it possible for the 1st Player to start encircling and Isolating units on his first move, before the 2nd Player has had a chance to do anything. Needless to say, this doesn´t exactly makes the task of going 2nd any easier.

I have also seen this in some scenarios, this is the type of issue that we fix when we test H2H scenarios at the Blitz, for example in the T41 stock Battleaxe scenario you can surround several Axis units with Allied A/C's on turn 1, however if you look at VM's _Alt version of the same scenario (that was tested at the Blitz H2H), this issue has been solved.

[ComradeP]

ComradeP,
If you have an issue to discuss about WitE, you should post in the Grigsby OPS forum. You will most likely get a better response there than here.

It was just an example for the difference in what can be accomplished in a single turn between a well known one turn per week wargame and this.