An idea for a new class of units - medical unit types

[K K Rossokolski]

"The primary raison d'etre is that officers who help with these functions are hard to find, thinly spaced amongst other units, or (if you play like me) you keep them with their HQ's for safety and to increase supply range of your HQ's. Medical units would take over some of the function of the absent officers."

A point of detail...medical officers and NCOs do not exercise military command, or did not in my day.

[Crossroads]

Interesting points raised by everyone. Somewhat to my surprise, I am a bit concerned of having Medic units introduced, not that I don't see how they improve or effect the game, but rather how I would feel having such units in a scenario from a moral point of view.

During Winter War, and later too, Soviet bombers and fighter planes felt big red crosses on white were a terrific idea... So much easier to set your gun and bomb sights at something you can see clearly... So much so, that big visible markings were mostly removed and hospitals and ambulances were duly camoflaged instead.

Then again, it is just a game. Now there's a neat use for your on-map bombers, chasing down those ambulances who think they're so much better than everyone else around!

In Rome:TW, you get three choices when your brave legions have won a settlement: just occupy the region, or, enslave the population in addition, or as a third option, put the population to the sword, the lot of them, and be done with the area.

O Tempora, O Mores, and all that

Yes, so having written the above, why not. It would be a new unit. To see how they work you could also ask for adding them to one of the mods? Jason's been really good supporting with encrypting files, and once available it would be possible to test them and to see them in action.

One more reason to download CWE, to see how they work there, too.

[Crossroads]

What other game could have you developing an organisation for a small Spanish Civil War battle one day, researching the map for the Nomonhan/Khalkhin Gol battles the next day, and finishing the week placing your formations, units and elements for O'Connor's attack on the Italians in 1940?

He** yes! I just heard through a grapevine that EF:FB will make a trip to 1920s, somewhere in the East Front. Stay tuned...

[Big Ivan]

OK John G,

First: You have functions in the game now to help moral like leaders, commissars, terrain and to an extent EA. Does the addition of medics improve on that game function? Personally I think not. Sure they would give another avenue to boost moral but their inclusion could and probably would affect game out come which leads to my next comment...

Second: If you have medics, ambulances and hospitals with negative point values they can be used by an opponent to block certain routes for victory. I've played some scenarios where in the last few turns I have struggled to get a draw and I mean struggled. With the addition of these units I feel they could and might adversly affect the outcome of a scenario.

Finally, my post was an attempt to deflect attention from the addition of more units to instead improving the game engine. If we improve the game engine IMO we all gain a thousand fold. For me that's more important than the addition of any new unit. We have limited programming resources available to work on JTCS. They should be focused on game engine improvements instead of new units is my thought.

Thanks for hearing me out my good man!

Ivan the Big (John)

[Crossroads]

ItB,

I don't believe the two choices are dependent on each other.

Adding new units, even I can do that given Jason would agree to run them through the encryption tool. Then it would be just adding the bitmaps, adding new organizations to oob files, little things like that. If you've looked at my making-of posts re LWM, now EF:FB mod that's what its mostly about.

Improving the engine is beyond modders I believe, and that's where the Matrix would need programmers.

[Kool Kat]

Finally, my post was an attempt to deflect attention from the addition of more units to instead improving the game engine. If we improve the game engine IMO we all gain a thousand fold. For me that's more important than the addition of any new unit. We have limited programming resources available to work on JTCS. They should be focused on game engine improvements instead of new units is my thought.

Gents:

The 1.04 patch was released in 2008... that's 5 years ago!

CS vets know the deficiencies of the game engine... as the majority of players, here at the Blitz, prefer play against human opponents and not the AI.

I understand Matrix has limited programing resources... and that MW has sucked all the programming hours, resources, and time away from other projects... and I have been as patient as the next player... waiting for the promised 1.05 patch

But, IMHO, I would think that most CS players would rank game engine improvements at a much higher priority than adding new units?

I would really like to see MW released sooner than later... hasn't there been nearly a 5 year development cycle with it?

Hopefully, 1.05 patch will be moved to the front burner on the development cycle timetable soon!

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I do not share your opinion that some posters have been "rude". They have, as I read it, simply expressed disapproval of an idea that I also believe is of no value to the game.

He has old school thinking Rod? "If you do not agree with me you must be rude, stupid, or crazy." I've heard this before when posters dig their heels in and entrench themselves in the "pet project".
Then we get Subs that are not subs. Transports that are not transports. Bomber bases that do not fly and other on board aircraft that occupy space on ground level. All requiring special rules.

Now for the person who thought I was rude, and to Panther (whose German development team modded in medics and ambulances), I just want to say I took my argument to the silly end to show that the game already has factored in morale. And, there is no need to bring in more chrome that has an effect on the game.

If you want medics and ambulances to see, that is one thing. To include them to effect the game is quite another.

I find I have had to protect the integrity of the game over the years. Even then, silly things have crept in that really are disappointing to me.
Whenever I see a "new and great thing" that should be added to the game I step back and ponder it's impact on the game. When I believe it is not a good impact I will let others know.
If that is rude, then so be it. That was not the intent of my comments. I do not take every negative opinion about what I believe in as rudeness toward me. Argue to the points and not the "pointer(s)"?



HSL

[Crossroads]

Gentlemen,

John posted a long opening post to discuss Medic units in a variety of implementations. We are straying from the topic.

To discuss Medics, it is irrelevant whether some earlier units were a hit or a miss. Game engine development is a separate issue as well.

What is relevant of course is whether they would work within the engine or not.

ItB raised a valid concern of gamey tactics using units with negative victory points. While medics have a right to carry weapons to defend themselves and their patients (I believe), they lose the Geneva convention protection if those weapons are used for offense. Game engine does not know any difference, so negative VP values are just that and even if you clear your way to a Victory Location by firing at them when they are clearly used for offense purposes to block the enemy advance you'd still lose points. That's a clear negative of such units.

A clear positive, for me that is, would be a capability to keep troops going. Another abstraction, and perhaps something that indeed would be more logical for Squad battles level of presentation. We do have individuals in the game though, leaders, commissars, so a medic could be present from that point of view.

At the end of the day, you really know once you play with them. As CWE has them, that's perhaps a way to judge your ideas, John?

I just learned earlier in this thread it is not a DG dependent but a independent install. Download and see for your self?

[Panther]

Gentlemen, gentlemen,

i don´t really understand why some hardened player have so rigid views about this theme ... some comments i can´t really take it seriously? Maybe you never tried to play with them.

For me ... it´s not important. It´s always easier to critism other (things) as shown own results! I accept your factual opinions! So show your willingness to accept other opinions.

At the end of the day, you really know once you play with them. As CWE has them, that's perhaps a way to judge your ideas, John?

I just learned earlier in this thread it is not a DG dependent but a independent install. Download and see for your self?

I have no more to add!

[Herr Straße Laufer]

What is relevant of course is whether they would work within the engine or not.

<snip>

At the end of the day, you really know once you play with them. As CWE has them, that's perhaps a way to judge your ideas, John?

Then I would like to say, play them with CWE.
Do not ask for them to be added to CS. The game has morale rules in place and the game is balanced by it.
Adding something that changes morale as is may just go too far.

If you can add them yourselves and play amongst yourselves that is your prerogative?

The original point was to add medics, which effect morale, to the game?
By showing what was added, that did not work previously but still exists in the game engine, is a valid part of anyone's argument.

Medics and ambulances that effect morale in this game scale? Sorry. I still say no.

And, to my friend Panther. I admire your willingness to protect the baby. No reason to not take any criticism seriously. I do not want to play with them because I do not believe in them, in this game and game scale.



HSL