An idea for a new class of units - medical unit types

[Scud]

A nice idea, when nice ideas seem so few and far between. A simple unit to help increase morale and disruption, but can't, as opposed to officers, help with supply. Pretty simple little add-on. The negatives seem so over-blown, end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it kind of things, at least to me.

I remember helping Mike West play test a scenario which used nazi security units. They didn't do much, and their mere presense I found distasteful. But no big deal, designers can add them or not and they don't destroy CS or legacy scenarios. So, in the end, who cares?

Sometime a little fresh paint on an old house is a good thing.

Nice thread, but keep it civil, please. :)

Dave

[Panther]

And, to my friend Panther. I admire your willingness to protect the baby. No reason to not take any criticism seriously. I do not want to play with them because I do not believe in them, in this game and game scale.



HSL

Well my friend. Good to hear. I respect always other views ... and you must not play with them .. or with CWE. Here we agree.

... ?

[K K Rossokolski]

What other game could have you developing an organisation for a small Spanish Civil War battle one day, researching the map for the Nomonhan/Khalkhin Gol battles the next day, and finishing the week placing your formations, units and elements for O'Connor's attack on the Italians in 1940?

He** yes! I just heard through a grapevine that EF:FB will make a trip to 1920s, somewhere in the East Front. Stay tuned...

Is it the Russo-Polish War in the early '20s?

[Warhorse]

Indeed, specifically the area around Lwow, in August, 1920!

[John Given]

Ok- many new replies, lots of opinions - not only awesome, but it shows discussion and discourse are alive and well on the blitz!

By now, many people have made many points for and against the inclusion of medical-class units. Although i wish a larger number of people have weighed in, I am glad for the participation we've had thus far.

Ok, quotation time, I'd like to post a few more responses and respond.

Posted by Scud - Yesterday 04:08 PM
A nice idea, when nice ideas seem so few and far between. A simple unit to help increase morale and disruption, but can't, as opposed to officers, help with supply. Pretty simple little add-on. The negatives seem so over-blown, end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it kind of things, at least to me.

I remember helping Mike West play test a scenario which used nazi security units. They didn't do much, and their mere presense I fould distasteful. But no big deal, designers can add them or not and they don't destroy CS or legacy scenarios. So, in the end, who cares?

Sometime a little fresh paint on an old house is a good thing.

Thank you David - that's basically my point in a nutshell.

BTW, I am a strong believer in game variety, because I know of what it can do FOR a game. Some here seem to think only about what it can do TO a game, and I wish I could figure a way to make them see the value in strong unit variety and new ways of conducting a large military operation.

Posted by Herr Straßen Läufer - Yesterday 03:23 PM Medics and ambulances that effect morale in this game scale? Sorry. I still say no.

Herr Straube - they would only effect the morale of units they were stacked with. Also, perhaps ambulances should have a different function - that of transporting medics only? I'm trying to maximize the FUN factor here, while being mindful of the limitations of the game engine.

osted by Panther - Yesterday 03:10 PM
Gentlemen, gentlemen,

i don´t really understand why some hardened player have so rigid views about this theme ... some comments i can´t really take it seriously? Maybe you never tried to play with them.

For me ... it´s not important. It´s always easier to critism other (things) as shown own results! I accept your factual opinions! So show your willingness to accept other opinions.

Panther makes an important point here.

Why be so against something that obviously is only meant to add variety and help with morale?

You also have to admit, Stefan's mod apparently has some medical units already in them - and they seem to be a positive addition to his game (Stefan, if you can name a scenario in your Cold War game that has medics, I'd like to download and try your mod ).

Posted by Battle Kat - Yesterday 12:30 PM At the end of the day, you really know once you play with them. As CWE has them, that's perhaps a way to judge your ideas, John?

You got me there - Stefan's mod might be a great way to see how these units work.

Posted by Kool Kat - Yesterday 09:47 AM But, IMHO, I would think that most CS players would rank game engine improvements at a much higher priority than adding new units? Idea2

That is an excellent point, and I agree with the approach your getting at, but the way I understand it is Jason adds improvements for 1.05 to a kind of list, and once Modern Wars is out, they will begin work on 1.05. So yes, it's possible implementing something like this may slow down the release of the patch, though I could only guess as to how much. Still, how hard could it be? Add a few graphics files, add them to the oob, a few minor odds and ends - we're not talking about adding whole nationalities or anything major.

Posted by Ivan The Big - Yesterday 07:58 AM If you have medics, ambulances and hospitals with negative point values they can be used by an opponent to block certain routes for victory. I've played some scenarios where in the last few turns I have struggled to get a draw and I mean struggled. With the addition of these units I feel they could and might adversly affect the outcome of a scenario.

John, remember that gamey tactics can happen even in games without such units, as many players have pointed out (ah, those wonderful halftrack discussions). Same would apply here. If I put a medic near my front line to help with morale, and he is lost in assault, then I lost my medic, along with his useful ability. I would much rather have my medic than a few victory points he provided. Besides, if I lose troops in an assault, losing those other troops will likely result in a big loss for me. Although I see your point - some people may be tempted to abuse the system.

As far as your struggling with certain scenarios; keep in mind that these units would only appear in new scenarios. And even in new scenarios they likely would be pretty rare. In any case, the scenario designer would obviously take this into account when creating the scenario victory conditions. Someone could revise an older scenario with the newer medic units, but the victory conditions would likely have to be altered.

In closing, I would like to add this, in case it matters;

My primary reason for bringing this type of unit to JTCS was because of my concern for all of YOU, as well as for our game. It would have been easy for me to clandestinely send this unit type 'theory' directly to Jason and try to sell it as the "next big thing." (edit: that does NOT mean Jason would have signed off on it) I am in fact concerned what the club members think, even if I may not always agree with them.

I thank all of you again for your posts!

[Herr Straße Laufer]

My primary reason for bringing this type of unit to JTCS was because of my concern for all of YOU, as well as for our game. It would have been easy for me to clandestinely send this unit type 'theory' directly to Jason and try to sell it as the "next big thing." (edit: that does NOT mean Jason would have signed off on it) I am in fact concerned what the club members think, even if I may not always agree with them.

Sending ideas to Jason to have them dumped into the game is how we got things like bomber bases, extreme assault, variable visibility, heavy bridge construction engineers (that can theoretically build a bridge that armor can cross in six minutes), subs that cannot "sub"merge, on board aircraft that occupy a hex space and can change victory hexes, etc..
None of these "added" to the game. Some have gone as far as fracturing the CS community.

As far as medics affecting only the hex they are in? Isn't that already factored into the morale of individual units?

If you want the unit included in the game as "chrome" I'm all for it. Scenario designers can use them at their wish.
If they are included and have an effect on the game I will just write a few new sentences to my ROE.



HSL

[Panther]

(Stefan, if you can name a scenario in your Cold War game that has medics, I'd like to download and try your mod ).

Well, no problem. Indeed i have one scenario with medic units, it´s called "Koblenzer Versuchung". Have fun with it.

R
Stefan

[Kool Kat]

Gents:

Still a good thread... but posters are starting to repeat their same points.

Let's either introduce some new ideas... or discussion points... or I'm going to move forward and close the thread.

Thanks folks!

[Crossroads]

Stefan, could you please point me to a working download link?

Gentlemen,

i present the game under RapidShare, you can download CWE under this link: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|68...rar|460411 .

Dl the game, create a new folder and unzip the files into the new folder ... that´s all. You start the game with the 405kb Cold War.exe!

Have fun to play the campaigns and scenarios.

Stefan

The one in the CWE thread, quoted above, results in an error message:

Download not available
Download permission denied by uploader. (0b67c2f5)

At least for me it does?

[Ashcloud]

Stefan, could you please point me to a working download link?

Gentlemen,

i present the game under RapidShare, you can download CWE under this link: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|68...rar|460411 .

Dl the game, create a new folder and unzip the files into the new folder ... that´s all. You start the game with the 405kb Cold War.exe!

Have fun to play the campaigns and scenarios.

Stefan

The one in the CWE thread, quoted above, results in an error message:

Download not available
Download permission denied by uploader. (0b67c2f5)

At least for me it does?

Does not work for me either.