Should Medic Units be included in JTCS?

[Kool Kat]

I feel pretty strongly though that our hobby must grow and evolve in order to survive, if not thrive. The number of, and popularity of JTCS mods is, imo, a strong testament to the desire for a number of our members to see the JTCS from a different perspective, as well as wring the max. amount of fun and variety out of it.

Hey John:

I agree that JTCS mods can interject a "shot of life" for some players into CS. A minority or sub-set of CS players will gravitate to various mods while the majority of players will play "vanilla" CS. And that's great. Something for everyone?

IMHO, the medics should be kept in the mods.

[John Given]

Posted by Herr Straßen Läufer - Today 07:36 AM And, I changed my mind, I agree with Pawel and Dmitriy that they do nothing and should be kept out of CS, even as eye candy.

I respect your opinion.
I just don't understand why you have it so strongly.

Well, for one everyone seemed to be scared off by the medic 'morale boost' function and I thought that the presence of a unit with no special abilities but a small neg. point value would discourage blind shelling, and the extra variety would be fun. This is the exact function of medics in the Cold War mod, and imo it is fun and adds to his mod.

Second, I wouldn't say I value it 'so strongly,' it's just that i want to make sure that everyone understands that this medic idea was is something that will have very little if any influence over how a game plays out (and again; the function of these medics is nearly non-existant - they are to add variety and fun only). Why, and how, could anyone possibly be so threatened by that. That's the part I don't get.

Posted by Kool Kat - Today 08:24 AM IMHO, the medics should be kept in the mods.

Never fear, kool kat - the voters have spoken and I will not push to have this added to JTCS.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Second, I wouldn't say I value it 'so strongly,' it's just that i want to make sure that everyone understands that this medic idea was is something that will have very little if any influence over how a game plays out (and again; the function of these medics is nearly non-existant - they are to add variety and fun only). Why, and how, could anyone possibly be so threatened by that. That's the part I don't get.

No, the medics will have influence on the game, that simply does not need them. As others have stated, they could even add a gaminess to it?
They do have a function. Every function adds or detracts?

No one is threatened by anything. Why say that?
The game would be threatened in it's area of balance. That is the part you might not get?



HSL

[Scud]

I voted no, because his would effect the game.

For the record, and not to start an argument, but Ed, you've made this point several times and it's incorrect. The addition of any unit only affects the scenario that it's used in, not the game itself. EA affected the game engine and the way CS is played, new units do not. That argument is very true when discussing the merits and flaws of extreme assualt.

I should also point out that the new versions of Matrix CS introduced new units of all kinds that affect the scenarios they're used in, but not the core game itself. "Heavy Metal Thunder" plays just the way it did when the designer created it. No medics, no recon planes, no trains or submarines.

Lastly, Matrix even introduced new armies, making more worlds for the creative designer to work in, more historic battles to research, create, and for us to get a taste for when trying out those new scenarios that take advantage of them. Should we ask Jason to reverse all that for v1.05? Get rid of all the new units and armies? Isn't it enough just to not play the scenarios that use them? I, myself, have yet to come across the non-submersible sub or the recon plane or the train. Designers don't like them, I guess. Tested and failed? Did it damage the game? I think, no, it did not.

Dave

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I voted no, because his would effect the game.

For the record, and not to start an argument, but Ed, you've made this point several times and it's incorrect. The addition of any unit only affects the scenario that it's used in, not the game itself. EA affected the game engine and the way CS is played, new units do not. That argument is very true when discussing the merits and flaws of extreme assualt.

Dave, you are quite right. Existing scenarios would not be effected, like they were with the edition of EA to the combat formula. The game might not see the effect but future scenarios, with the use of medic units that have an effect on morale, would.
Thanks for the clarification of my thought.

Lastly, Matrix even introduced new armies, making more worlds for the creative designer to work in, more historic battles to research, create, and for us to get a taste for when trying out those new scenarios that take advantage of them. Should we ask Jason to reverse all that for v1.05? Get rid of all the new units and armies? Isn't it enough just to not play the scenarios that use them? I, myself, have yet to come across the non-submersible sub or the recon plane or the train. Designers don't like them, I guess. Tested and failed? Did it damage the game? I think, no, it did not.

Well well. It's come to this?

The only things I would ever ask for Jason to take out are the things they put in that adversely effect the game.
In my opinion EA is one. Variable Visibility is another. On map planes that cannot fly, ships that do not work as ships, or can be fixed to operate within the game scale, should all be removed.
And, as long as trains stay on the rails who cares? They do not effect morale, or did I miss something?

Did I ever say anything about taking out the new armies or added countries?
Please don't build straw men by putting words in my hand that I never typed.

And, to be precise, we were discussing the effect upon the game?
Others brought in the possible gameiness the units could bring with them. If they were added to the game?

The modders and out of the box thinkers can add whatever they want to their hearts content. Those mods I do not have/want to play?
I've not asked anyone to not add to their "thing".
Just not to the game as a whole.



HSL

[Scud]

Did I ever say anything about taking out the new armies or added countries?
Please don't build straw men by putting words in my hand that I never typed.

Didn't mean to imply anything or put words in your mouth, just trying to illustrate my point (I guess not too well ) that the addition of all that "stuff" doesn't affect CS, just the scenarios they're used in.

Anyway, said all I wanted to say, except maybe....what's wrong with USO entertainers? :rolleyes2:

Dave

[K K Rossokolski]

I voted no, because his would effect the game.

For the record, and not to start an argument, but Ed, you've made this point several times and it's incorrect. The addition of any unit only affects the scenario that it's used in, not the game itself. EA affected the game engine and the way CS is played, new units do not. That argument is very true when discussing the merits and flaws of extreme assualt.

I should also point out that the new versions of Matrix CS introduced new units of all kinds that affect the scenarios they're used in, but not the core game itself. "Heavy Metal Thunder" plays just the way it did when the designer created it. No medics, no recon planes, no trains or submarines.

Lastly, Matrix even introduced new armies, making more worlds for the creative designer to work in, more historic battles to research, create, and for us to get a taste for when trying out those new scenarios that take advantage of them. Should we ask Jason to reverse all that for v1.05? Get rid of all the new units and armies? Isn't it enough just to not play the scenarios that use them? I, myself, have yet to come across the non-submersible sub or the recon plane or the train. Designers don't like them, I guess. Tested and failed? Did it damage the game? I think, no, it did not.

Dave

There are two issues here, and they both go to the very heart of CS as a highly versatile historical simulation of battle, with the ability to include every combatant nation we can think of.
This is the prism through which I view the game. The addition of anything new must be tested against how faithfully it replicates the real thing.
A flamethrower, for example, which was not in the very first CS releases, was added years ago; it acts and looks like the real thing, as we want it to. We recently got an elephant..used in WWII and in Vietnam. Eye candy par extraordinaire, looks great but also does what it should. Top class historical simulation. On less certain ground, we have MPs with no powers of arrest, nor can they keep order amonst the troops. Neither can they be bribed. But they can do other MP stuff such as HQ security, convoy guards. Not vital, but nice to have.
We could certainly add medical elements which look like the real thing. But I am yet to be convinced that they can actually do anything. How does the CS medic pick out the wounded from the CS platoon? How does the dustoff helo know who to load? The talk of morale enhancement may have some validity, but all I have seen is a lot of motherhood stuff, and I need a lot more convincing on this matter. The priviledged legal status might be more than CS can handle.
But if added, even if they don't work, I don't think they will detract from the game's image and reputation.

Which brings me to the second issue....elements which are so awful, so lacking any connection to reality that they insult our game by their mere existence in it. I refer of course to the dreadful, appalling "airfield bombers" which shoot their bombs miles away without ever leaving the ground. And of course the bathtub navy. Sure, like medics, these things do not need to be used by designers , but the very presence of such unrealistic garbage lowers the reputation of CS as a serious, well considered and brilliantly evolved war game.

[Crossroads]

But I am yet to be convinced that they can actually do anything. How does the CS medic pick out the wounded from the CS platoon? How does the dustoff helo know who to load? The talk of morale enhancement may have some validity, but all I have seen is a lot of motherhood stuff, and I need a lot more convincing on this matter. The priviledged legal status might be more than CS can handle.
But if added, even if they don't work, I don't think they will detract from the game's image and reputation.

Rod, They would 'pick up the wounded' via enhancing the morale of a disrupted unit, allowing it to return to duty. I think that is a neat wy to abstract it.

Also, instead of having Medics running around the map (in little kubelwagens, preferrably), an addition of say Advanced Dressing Stations and Field Dressing Stations would allow disrupted platoons to 'transfer their wounded' in a historical manner that fits the scale. A Medical Squad or Medical Platoon with their 'stretchers' would provide a similar aid as well.

I feel the idea of adding medical logistics was terrific, and it would just need a proper implementation to add to the game (scenarios) for those who would like to experiment a new dimension to JTCS.

Negative VP values if implemented need to be considered carefully. I feel they should have a negative value. And if someone blocks an exit hex with layers of Field Dressing Stations well I won't be playing him again.

All in all, a very simple abstraction.

Luckily, Jason has been very kind in supporting a thriving mod community, and I believe these additions will make it to at least a couple of mods, once we've figured out the proper abstraction.

It was a nice idea to make a poll out of this, although I enjoyed the discussion even more. And since entertaining the majority is not why I work with a mod, but the fun of doing it, alas, I will propably add them to EF:FB. Then those who want to try them can do so, while those who don't can steer clear. Anyway, like Scud pointed out, rare will be the scenario that has them. If they gain in popularity, fine. If they don't, well I had my fun anyway

[K K Rossokolski]

Thanks Petri.That is about the first hard info I've seen on what these blokes might do. I was initially strongly opposed to this idea, but if properly thought through, and given acceptable realism, it could be of value. Certainly, medical operations were a prominent visual feature of the war I was in. The acts of treating and particularly removing wounded promptly are known to be beneficial to morale. I think you would need great care not to subsume the role of command, though, and I for one am a bit uncomfortable with the ethics of it, especially if it allowed attacks on enemy facilities, althgough we all know these happen.

[Crossroads]

Yes, I find the ethics side a bit disturbing as well. Hence the negative VP values are still included in my plans. But this is a game only I guess. It already has units like NKVD and (Waffen) SS platoons so there you go...