Moscow '42 balance opinions thus far?

[ComradeP]

Sure, in a month or two. I am looking forward to playing some of the short scenarios, it's just the balance of the campaign that I'm worried about.

[Dog Soldier]

Dog Soldier: you're commenting on my strategy in somewhat absolute terms. I don't mean that I'd immediately pull back my mobile units in such a way that it leaves the infantry's flanks hanging in the breeze. Rather, I'd pull them back slowly to allow the infantry to get out. 4. Armee has 2 infantry divisions in reserve that will be near full strength or full strength by the time they activate, together with an infantry division of 4. Panzergruppe belonging to VII. Armeekorps. They can then take the place of more mobile units in the 3. and 4. Panzergruppe sectors.

Well that is what you made it sound like. I am just not so sure a unit receives replacements every turn it sits still. So even moving slowly or rotating units they will not necessarily receive replacements. Thus I believe the numbers for the Germans you are presenting could be a bit flawed in actual practice.

As for attacking full German battalions head on or moving forward maintaining a line of units from the start positions, that is a sure recipe for a Russian loss. Assuming your Russian opponent is that foolish to dilute their strength along the entire front the entire game... well lacks a bit of experience with the PzC system IMHO.

The Russians should be probing & determine where the Germans are weak. But let us assume for a moment you are right about the numbers.
Since the Axis is weakest when the game starts, a focused Soviet attack to take out a division or so equivalents of units from the German OOB would the order of the day. Dead units do not get replacements. I do not think the Germans can form up full battalions along the entire front of the January CG and pull back the number of units to rest and refit as you suggest. No, instead, IMHO, a good Soviet player is going to press hard on the Germans as they retire and find a point to concentrate in those first three days to break the line and pour tanks, cavalry & ski troops through the breach to roll up and isolate German units. The Red infantry will close up and destroy these trapped German units. This will produce a cascade effect as more German units are lost, the 'R&R' units will have to be put into the line instead of resting to near full strength as you suggest. Or they will join the front on day three to find vast open areas on their flanks.

As for the 'fixed' areas of the front, those areas have flanks. A wily soviet player could push hard on those fixed division's neighbors leaving an opening to pour cavalry and ski troops eight to ten km beyond the 'fixed' front. Then begin to take out the Axis artillery and set up road blocks further reducing supply to those 'stronger' German units. I will bet the Germans will not have an easy time escaping when they are two levels low on morale from a combination of low ammo/fuel, isolation or combat fatigue. The fatigue will come from marching back one hex at a time to confront the Soviet blocking forces while being pursued by the front line Red infantry & tattooed by every Soviet artillery piece along the front.

I will stress that it is very possible in M42, from my playing experience, to rip apart a German division a piece at a time as the Soviet player if you do not over reach. The Germans have fewer units to cover the front. Concentrating on taking out 10% of them from the OOB will hamper the Germans ability to create a revitalized force and hold a line to prevent further erosion from loss of units.

What is unique about M42 is that a player can win on either side without needing to create 'fully reformed units'. In fact, the idea to let units refit to near full strength, in my last two years of testing and playing M42, just cannot happen with taking risks to the integrity of the front.

Averages and sweeping analysis of the whole is fine. It is the Soviet job to throw the Germans out of the strategy they adopt and keep them reacting to the Russian moves. The M42 game gives the Russian player the tools to do just that.
Not just march forward like a line of sheep.

In the end, it is all about the Russians doing everything they can to maintain the advantage of a greater number of units to swamp the local German defense somewhere then exploit that temporary hole in the line before German mobile units can get there to react.

Russian play on storm days will be different than on clear days with frozen conditions and yet again different on days of thaw when rivers appear. For Russian play to be uniform throughout the campaign in every sector, is just not right. Or you are facing an unimaginative Russian commander.

No plan survives first contact with the enemy. So either of us could be wrong. Only one way I know of to solve that issue.

All I can guarantee for M42 is this game can play very different from previous east front titles in the series, if you think outside the box as the Russian. That alone makes it a fun and challenging game with a lot of replay in the included scenarios.

Dog Soldier

[Tide1]

DS when I was beta testing M'42 there where a couple times David was actually surprised by what I was doing.

By the way DS I would like to shoot a couple of scenario ideas your way for the next tournament Moscow 1941-1942

[ComradeP]

One of the reasons why supply can feel like it's somewhat generous is that the VST rule, like T-mode movement, doesn't take weather related modifiers into account for moving supplies around along a primary road.

The primary road network's fairly decent in large parts of the map, so to force a side to stick to the roads, maybe some sort of supply variation for supply moving along major roads in Frozen (so very low temperatures and/or blizzards) conditions could be an option.

[Gordons HQ]

Thanks Dog Soldier for your analysis, although I haven't played this title yet, what you say sounds extremely logical and challenging. I'll say this you have certainly aroused my interest in this game and when time permits I will have to try it out.

Gordon

[goomohn]

If the Germans fall back from the Rzhev salient and the casualty points are equal will the Germans score a victory?

[Dog Soldier]

One of the reasons why supply can feel like it's somewhat generous is that the VST rule, like T-mode movement, doesn't take weather related modifiers into account for moving supplies around along a primary road.

The primary road network's fairly decent in large parts of the map, so to force a side to stick to the roads, maybe some sort of supply variation for supply moving along major roads in Frozen (so very low temperatures and/or blizzards) conditions could be an option.

I am afraid you are working from a false assumption here. Open any winter scenario and turn on the menu option to show local supply values. As you advance turn from one day to the next changes in ground conditions certainly do effect VST local supply values.

Main roads are the arteries the rear echelon construction troops would work to keep open with snow removal. Even so the following screen shot show how different ground conditions do affect VST local supply values even on main roads.

What you are claiming just is not so. Better take another look.

Dog Soldier

Even locations on main roads change. Change is greater the further from the main roads are the units.

VST Supply 2nd Panzergruppe area in Snow Conditions


VST Supply 2nd Panzergruppe area in Frozen Conditions

[goomohn]

Seems like an inexpierenced player making assumptions upon a wargame he hasn't really participated in.

[Liquid_Sky]

ComradeP is not wrong. Primary roads are unaffected by weather for movement. Which means that the truck movement points use clear weather movement.

When you look at the parameter data for the Movement modifier for motorized units: Snow is 250% and Frozen is 250%. No change between the two weather types.

The miniscule difference in supply levels from Dog Soldier is either a bug in how the program calculates the supply percentage, or from some rounding differences in the adding up the math, or perhaps the way it calculates the path can change from turn to turn.

Having said that, the supply number only used if the unit has fired (to check to become Low Ammo), or if the unit is Low Ammo (to remove it) or if the unit is on Low Fuel or on the midnight turn to check fuel status for units that need fuel and moved some time during the day.

If you never fire and are foot...then you will always have supply....and you will always have full movement.

[Liquid_Sky]

Actually, there is a difference between frozen and snow for supply movement that would explain the small differences between Dog Soldiers pictures.

The rivers are frozen in one of them...meaning supply can take some short cuts..and explains why the supply levels are a bit better.