Moscow '42 Files Update (as at Jan 23rd, 2013)

[raizer]

yah the germans sure ran a lot of 20mm AA and 37mm AA guns on unarmored half tracks...eventually they up armored them but they came in both versions on half tracks.

[ComradeP]

The 1st Guards Cavalry Corps has two 1st Guards Mortar Battalions in hex 487, 252.

[ComradeP]

Strela, would it be possible to consider placing the 57th Pontoon Bridge Battalion on the map at the start of the December grand campaign? It would solve the "the Volga thaws immediately at the first snow turn" problem which isolates the Soviet forces across the Volga.

The forces west of Kalinin have a pontoon unit, but the units east of it don't unless you pack up the bridging unit with the bridge across the reservoir. However, it would still only arrive after about 20 turns.

You could also move the 51st Pontoon Bridge Battalion there from 30th Army, but it won't be able to get to the Volga and place a bridge in less than about 3 days.

The unit starts on the map in the Kalinin City scenario, but only arrives on the 18th of December in the grand campaign.

[Strela]

Strela, would it be possible to consider placing the 57th Pontoon Bridge Battalion on the map at the start of the December grand campaign? It would solve the "the Volga thaws immediately at the first snow turn" problem which isolates the Soviet forces across the Volga.

The forces west of Kalinin have a pontoon unit, but the units east of it don't unless you pack up the bridging unit with the bridge across the reservoir. However, it would still only arrive after about 20 turns.

You could also move the 51st Pontoon Bridge Battalion there from 30th Army, but it won't be able to get to the Volga and place a bridge in less than about 3 days.

The unit starts on the map in the Kalinin City scenario, but only arrives on the 18th of December in the grand campaign.

Yep, let me have a look. We did something to fix this in the smaller scenarios, but it makes complete sense to fix it in the campaigns.

Will post a fix real soon.

David

[ComradeP]

It was mentioned before, and I think there's probably a reason for some German units releasing (well) before the Soviets in front of them, but would it be possible to consider fixing the units belonging to IX AK, XXXX AK (mot) and XXXXVI AK (mot) in place until the Soviets opposing them activate?

Initially, I thought they would need to be able to withdraw a bit in order to avoid being flanked, but as long as V AK isn't fixed the Soviets shouldn't be able to flank them in two days.

I've only been playing against the AI, of course, but you can prepare some really ugly surprises in the two days you currently have to reorganize your defensive line without any risk of being attacked.

As a more conservative suggestion, releasing 1st and 5th Guards Mortar Battalions and the 537th Army Artillery Regiment together with the Rifle divisions north of them would at least allow you to provide your troops with artillery support in case the Germans withdraw. The artillery still releases with their army HQ on the 13th, unlike the infantry which releases on the 8th to support 16th Army.

The Germans already get generous replacements, more than they would get from a 1% normal rule (because in that case, they get diminishing returns when they get stronger, and currently they always get 6, 8 or 9-10 men on average depending on battalion size) and just being able to walk away from the Soviets whilst they're fixed makes it impossible for the Soviets to apply any real pressure to those German units (if they withdraw). By the time the Soviets reach them, they'll have regained some strength and will have interlocking fields of fire and good artillery support probably.

I know I'm still greener than green in terms of actual "genuine" experience with the series as I haven't played against a human yet, but I've literally been trying to figure out a counter to this for several months and there are just too many things working against the Soviets to allow you to launch a good attack against a well defended position with units retreating when necessary. As the Soviet infantry units are slow and can only move and assault up to 1 hex range away, moving back one hex completely removes the danger of being hit by an assault.

The Axis units ~west of Moscow not being fixed gives them a big advantage in that area in case they decide to pull back a bit to shorten/rationalize their lines.

2nd Panzer Group has a couple of turns to make some initial changes to their dispositions, but the guys west of Moscow have 2 days before the Soviets can respond. That's a lot of time that if used well will cause serious problems to the Soviets.

Parts of 4th and 9th Armies being able to refit to (near) full strength before you can attack them is one thing, as like Dog Soldier said they have flanks and you don't need to assault 700-800 men battalions in bunkers per se. However, add to that the Germans being able to withdraw in good order north of 4th Army and the balance starts to shift to the Germans. It will take a few days to move the Soviet units opposing 4th and 9th Armies to areas where they can be of use, but it's possible and if you do things right you'll have breached 4th Armies northern flank and 9th Army will nearly be cut in half by a breakthrough near Kalinin. When Kalinin Front starts to get serious and the reinforcements arrive, you can at least direct them to sectors where you've broken through and you don't have to remove the ~5 westernmost 9th Army units from their bunkers when they're full strength. They'll have to withdraw at some point.

Due to the higher mobility the Germans have, if a German player withdraws he essentially forces you to fight on his terms. Any situation where you have to catch up with him greatly favours him and if he has the initiative, he can also let more units rest and refit.

Whilst the Germans have a good refit rating and good mobility for their mobile units, they can still be hit hard large concentrations of artillery (and the upgraded Katyusha's will really hurt him when massed), which is the main counter the Soviets have to the ahistorically strong Germans in case the German player withdraws. It's really quite staggering how quickly the Germans refit if left alone. You might call that a big "if", but as I've posted before: there are many sectors of the front where you simply can't do much if anything about it due to your own units being frozen.

The Soviets still have a fairly unforgiving withdraw schedule in the 16th Army area as well. Losing 2 Guards divisions whilst the Germans are quite strong before you can reach them can really hurt.

Personally, I'd appreciate it if you'd take a few minutes to think about the possibilities in terms of strength gain and preparing traps. The quality gap between Soviet and German unit is substantial enough to allow the Germans to keep the Soviets stuck in a disrupted loop if they can regain some strength. It's like the Sukhinichi I scenario all across the front if that happens, and it's ugly for the Soviets.

I'm beginning to like the rest of the balance of the scenario (although the Germans can afford to give up a lot more ground than would be historically acceptable as the points for the objectives are not very high compared to points from preventing losses) as in many cases you can prevent the Germans from refitting or at the least counter it by concentrating forces.

As another note on peculiar releases: XXXXIII AK currently releases with the rest of 2nd Panzer Group on turn 4, whilst it's also in the release list for the 14th (when the Soviets opposing them activate).

In my opinion, which may indeed not be worth much, the German replacement rate and the way the release schedule favours them in a number of sectors, which makes it nearly impossible or simply impossible to break through their bunker line is the main threat to the balance for the campaign.

Any value based on a percentage, like the replacement rate, can have unbalanced results over a longer period if enough time is available for it to reach a maximum effect (which the Germans can achieve by pulling back whilst leaving a rearguard behind, or because they're in bunkers and the Soviets nearby are fixed for several days). One of the percentage chance things the Soviets have working in their favour is that their air units are smaller and thus more numerous, so statistically speaking there is a higher chance that one of those will be available than one of the Luftwaffe's air units.

[ComradeP]

Another thing I've been wondering about since release is the Kalinin Front Offensive scenario, which lasts for a month according to the description but actually lasts only 88 turns. The majority of the Soviet reinforcements will never arrive, for example.

[Strela]

It was mentioned before, and I think there's probably a reason for some German units releasing (well) before the Soviets in front of them, but would it be possible to consider fixing the units belonging to IX AK, XXXX AK (mot) and XXXXVI AK (mot) in place until the Soviets opposing them activate?

Initially, I thought they would need to be able to withdraw a bit in order to avoid being flanked, but as long as V AK isn't fixed the Soviets shouldn't be able to flank them in two days.

I've only been playing against the AI, of course, but you can prepare some really ugly surprises in the two days you currently have to reorganize your defensive line without any risk of being attacked.

As a more conservative suggestion, releasing 1st and 5th Guards Mortar Battalions and the 537th Army Artillery Regiment together with the Rifle divisions north of them would at least allow you to provide your troops with artillery support in case the Germans withdraw. The artillery still releases with their army HQ on the 13th, unlike the infantry which releases on the 8th to support 16th Army.

The Germans already get generous replacements, more than they would get from a 1% normal rule (because in that case, they get diminishing returns when they get stronger, and currently they always get 6, 8 or 9-10 men on average depending on battalion size) and just being able to walk away from the Soviets whilst they're fixed makes it impossible for the Soviets to apply any real pressure to those German units (if they withdraw). By the time the Soviets reach them, they'll have regained some strength and will have interlocking fields of fire and good artillery support probably.

I know I'm still greener than green in terms of actual "genuine" experience with the series as I haven't played against a human yet, but I've literally been trying to figure out a counter to this for several months and there are just too many things working against the Soviets to allow you to launch a good attack against a well defended position with units retreating when necessary. As the Soviet infantry units are slow and can only move and assault up to 1 hex range away, moving back one hex completely removes the danger of being hit by an assault.

The Axis units ~west of Moscow not being fixed gives them a big advantage in that area in case they decide to pull back a bit to shorten/rationalize their lines.

2nd Panzer Group has a couple of turns to make some initial changes to their dispositions, but the guys west of Moscow have 2 days before the Soviets can respond. That's a lot of time that if used well will cause serious problems to the Soviets.

Parts of 4th and 9th Armies being able to refit to (near) full strength before you can attack them is one thing, as like Dog Soldier said they have flanks and you don't need to assault 700-800 men battalions in bunkers per se. However, add to that the Germans being able to withdraw in good order north of 4th Army and the balance starts to shift to the Germans. It will take a few days to move the Soviet units opposing 4th and 9th Armies to areas where they can be of use, but it's possible and if you do things right you'll have breached 4th Armies northern flank and 9th Army will nearly be cut in half by a breakthrough near Kalinin. When Kalinin Front starts to get serious and the reinforcements arrive, you can at least direct them to sectors where you've broken through and you don't have to remove the ~5 westernmost 9th Army units from their bunkers when they're full strength. They'll have to withdraw at some point.

Due to the higher mobility the Germans have, if a German player withdraws he essentially forces you to fight on his terms. Any situation where you have to catch up with him greatly favours him and if he has the initiative, he can also let more units rest and refit.

Whilst the Germans have a good refit rating and good mobility for their mobile units, they can still be hit hard large concentrations of artillery (and the upgraded Katyusha's will really hurt him when massed), which is the main counter the Soviets have to the ahistorically strong Germans in case the German player withdraws. It's really quite staggering how quickly the Germans refit if left alone. You might call that a big "if", but as I've posted before: there are many sectors of the front where you simply can't do much if anything about it due to your own units being frozen.

The Soviets still have a fairly unforgiving withdraw schedule in the 16th Army area as well. Losing 2 Guards divisions whilst the Germans are quite strong before you can reach them can really hurt.

Personally, I'd appreciate it if you'd take a few minutes to think about the possibilities in terms of strength gain and preparing traps. The quality gap between Soviet and German unit is substantial enough to allow the Germans to keep the Soviets stuck in a disrupted loop if they can regain some strength. It's like the Sukhinichi I scenario all across the front if that happens, and it's ugly for the Soviets.

I'm beginning to like the rest of the balance of the scenario (although the Germans can afford to give up a lot more ground than would be historically acceptable as the points for the objectives are not very high compared to points from preventing losses) as in many cases you can prevent the Germans from refitting or at the least counter it by concentrating forces.

As another note on peculiar releases: XXXXIII AK currently releases with the rest of 2nd Panzer Group on turn 4, whilst it's also in the release list for the 14th (when the Soviets opposing them activate).

In my opinion, which may indeed not be worth much, the German replacement rate and the way the release schedule favours them in a number of sectors, which makes it nearly impossible or simply impossible to break through their bunker line is the main threat to the balance for the campaign.

Any value based on a percentage, like the replacement rate, can have unbalanced results over a longer period if enough time is available for it to reach a maximum effect (which the Germans can achieve by pulling back whilst leaving a rearguard behind, or because they're in bunkers and the Soviets nearby are fixed for several days). One of the percentage chance things the Soviets have working in their favour is that their air units are smaller and thus more numerous, so statistically speaking there is a higher chance that one of those will be available than one of the Luftwaffe's air units.

That was a long post :)

Essentially the gist of what you're asking for is that the German Panzergruppe's opposing locked Soviet Armies are also locked in place until the Soviet's launch there counterattack.

The historical rationale for not doing that is that once 1st Shock and 30th Army launched their attacks on the northern part of the German salient, Hitler called off all offensive actions and gave permission for the Panzergruppes to go on the defence.

The German forces which were strung out and in positions they could hardly supply pulled back at least closer to their supply lines. The fact that the Soviet armies on the southern side of the salient did not launch their attacks earlier is not reason enough to punish the Germans.

The southern flank, Soviet Armies were fast tracked in their release once it became obvious that the German's were in a worse state than expected.

From a game perspective this could have significant issues. If either 1st Shock or 30th Army manage to capture some of the significant towns in the north while the south of the salient is frozen then you could be looking at an unmitigated disaster.

The difference these two days make is negligible other than allowing the German to get his units that have diabolical supply issues to just being 'bad' supply issues.

That said, it is easy enough to adjust whether units are fixed by using the editor to make the changes you want.

As a final comment, Von Nev sent me a file of the campaign game he mentioned earlier in this thread. They have completed 161 turns so far and have noted a couple of things.

• Nowhere has the Soviet got a complete breakthrough, but they are very close in a number of areas
  
• There are a lot of points along the line though that have small penetrations and have the potential to collapse
  
• After a week of combat, Divisions have to be rotated out and it takes 20 to 30 turns to get them to a level that they can be put back in the line. There are not enough units in reserve across the front to sustain this
  
• Victory points requirements aren't high enough for the casualties being inflicted/taken
  
• Soviet artillery when used enmasse is a massive killer and is generating a lot of points for the Russian player
  

Every campaign game is dramatically different and as we have mentioned previously I can only try and emulate the historical parameters for players and hope it plays out with some logic. If these games followed history every time there would be little reason for players to play them.

David

---

Another thing I've been wondering about since release is the Kalinin Front Offensive scenario, which lasts for a month according to the description but actually lasts only 88 turns. The majority of the Soviet reinforcements will never arrive, for example.

You got me....!

I made the call to slash the number of turns in that scenario from 250 to 88. It was just not working in its original form and we took into account what we had seen in play testing of the other smaller scenarios from that sector.

As this was late in the design cycle, I never got back and tidied the scenario up, removing items such as the superfluous reinforcements etc.

If I have a chance I will do that for the next round of updates.

David

[ComradeP]

The historical rationale for not doing that is that once 1st Shock and 30th Army launched their attacks on the northern part of the German salient, Hitler called off all offensive actions and gave permission for the Panzergruppes to go on the defence.

The German forces which were strung out and in positions they could hardly supply pulled back at least closer to their supply lines. The fact that the Soviet armies on the southern side of the salient did not launch their attacks earlier is not reason enough to punish the Germans.

&

From a game perspective this could have significant issues. If either 1st Shock or 30th Army manage to capture some of the significant towns in the north while the south of the salient is frozen then you could be looking at an unmitigated disaster.

Could you give an example of how 1st Shock Army could capture towns that would make the positions of the units I mentioned untenable, because I'm curious? Looking at the map, I see no way how anything the Soviets do on the first two days can cause difficulty to the units below V corps. The Germans have a pretty good road network in that area, with a more or less east-west major road behind Das Reich that the Soviets can't possibly cut in two days. IX AK can wheel towards VII AK which is in bunkers.

I'm not suggesting that any units opposing the Soviet armies active on turn 1 or parts of 16th Army are frozen, just the ones that the Soviets can't reach and currently have the chance to withdraw without being chased.

That's problematic because when 16th Army and the Rifle units to the south activate, they don't have the initiative. They don't know where the Germans are, the Germans can concentrate units and the first withdrawals happen fairly shortly after the Soviet forces activate. I found it really difficult to keep 16th Army going when facing ambushes and determined resistance from the German units that I had moved back, some of whom were entrenched after the first snow turns.

I understand a historical reasoning for limiting the number of fixed units, but there are already a number of ahistorical things to consider:

* The German replacement rate is higher than that of Soviet units when they are around 50 supply (which they either are at the start or which they can be with relatively little effort) due to the German unit size being larger. That's where the German 4 company battalion model gives the Soviets a disadvantage, because the Germans refit faster.

* Replacement rates for both sides are high when in adequate supply by default because they're based on a percentage and not on a certain number of replacements.

* The Soviets have a "Stalin penalty" of sorts because they're stuck with the historical arrival and withdrawal schedule. The withdrawal schedule in particular is a handicap. That would be balanced, but ...

* The Germans don't have an incentive for a stand fast/no retreat tactic. The points for objectives are fairly low compared to the points from casualties (which can quickly become quite high).

That's basically the main balance problem I encounter: the Germans have too little incentive to play a historical game where they "have" to defend certain objectives and can play an optimal game of retreating and limited counterattacks to bleed the Soviets white over time. They have a generous replacement rate if managed well. With each man the German units gain, the Soviets will have a more difficult time with attacking, also because the stacking limit is the same for both sides so it can be difficult to apply numerical superiority. The Soviets have a historical starting situation and a historical arrival/withdrawal rating, which can unbalance sectors where the Germans can refit or engage in a fighting withdrawal.

I found the best way to deal with German defences that I had the time to organize well to be massive concentrations of artillery and/or tanks (like the players in the ongoing game you posted about also mentioned).

That's one of the main reasons why I've been staring at the campaign game for a year without really starting it against a human: I feel like I'm encouraged to play ahistorically as the Soviets because an ahistorical German playstyle of a careful fighting withdrawal followed by a counterattack is just very difficult to counter without massing the artillery or tanks. It can quickly become a game of extremes. Due to the time scale and the limited Soviet unit quality making movement slow combined with locking ZOCs, they don't have the mobility to create and exploit breakthroughs like they could historically in some areas. Instead of creating breakthroughs with ski and cavalry units winter 1941-1942 style, I'm creating breakthroughs with tanks and artillery, 1944 style.

That's what I'm trying to discuss with the posts I make from time to time, and I'm trying to think of a way to nullify the impacts of the extremes and of some of the choices of formula's that can lead to ahistorical situations (such as having a replacement system based on a percentage of total strength or losses, instead of an X amount of replacements).

I'm having a lot of fun looking at the campaign map and planning strategies, but not a lot of fun when playing against myself as I automatically try to optimize my defensive and offensive setups in an ahistorical manner, because I have the feeling the campaign game pushes me in that direction.

The amount of casualties massed Soviet artillery can cause are also the reason I created that thread about German bunkers in Fall Kreml.

[ComradeP]

The first two weeks of the campaign go like this when I play it against myself:

-The initial attacks proceed more or less historically, although I pull 3rd and 4th Panzer Group back, leaving a screen that can spot for artillery to prevent the Soviets from moving up in T mode without taking substantial losses/disrupting.

-As movement speed is decided by unit type and quality, the Soviets are slower than the Germans in most areas. Soviet cavalry, for example, which is supposed to be fast and be able to outflank the Germans, can't move ZOC to ZOC and is slower than German cavalry. Likewise, assaults by ski units are easily avoided by moving back 1 hex.

That's main problem 1 for the Soviets: the infantry and cavalry can only assault if the Germans let them, giving the initiative to the German player as he basically decides where the Soviets can attack.

-As the units west of 16th Army can pull back unopposed, I tend to move Das Reich and at least some pioneer units to Kalinin, where they can give an ugly surprise to the Kalinin Front units pushing into Kalinin. When 16th Army activates, the Soviets have no idea where the German units are.

By the time the Soviets reach the Germans, the first snow turns have generally appeared, so the Germans are in trenches and have a second and sometimes third line of trenches behind them (the Germans have enough engineer and particularly AT units to dig in where they please). The defensive benefit isn't substantial, but it helps. Shortly afterwards, 16th Army loses two Guards divisions to withdrawals.

-2nd Panzer Group is under some pressure, but it gets a head start and as Schuetzen units can move two hexes in clear terrain unlike any Soviet infantry unit, they can fairly easily screen the infantry that uses the road network to get out of the salient.

-When the units in the center activate, they're facing a nearly full strength 4th Army. As the chance of removing a 800 man B quality unit from a bunker is minimal, some of the Soviet forces spend several days relocating.

The Germans benefit greatly from having 800 men infantry units.

This is main Soviet problem 2: replacements are calculated based on unit size and supply, which gives the Germans a substantial edge. A slightly reduced supply state doesn't decrease replacements enough to matter. Crucially, there are no diminishing returns as unlike with the refitting percentage based on losses, the Germans will always gain 8 men on average when they draw replacements. The goal of limiting German replacements, as expressed in the campaign notes, is thus not achieved: German infantry units still refit more quickly than their Soviet counterparts.

A possible solution would be giving the Germans the usual 1% refitting based on losses, and the Soviets the current replacements. On average, the German B quality units would then draw fewer replacements than the Soviets when below 400 losses. A quality units would still draw substantial replacements most of the time, but that sacrifice might be worth it. What matters to the Soviets is that the German infantry won't refit so quickly. As the Germans can still refit for over a week, it wouldn't help much with 4th Army and 9th Army units, but at least it would help eventually.

When Kalinin Front starts to get serious, I'm sort of forced to move the reinforcements to the breakthrough at Kalinin, as I face the same "800 men B quality units in bunkers" problem there like when engaging 4th Army.

One of the other problems is that replacements only appear if a unit doesn't move, which heavily favours the side with the initiative. This is unlike most wargames, where the player gets X replacements per (couple of) turn(s).

Replacements being placed on a percentage can be a big problem in scenarios where one side or both sides received few replacements. It seems to the same in many PzC titles. The same ahistorically strong Germans appear in Normandy and at Kharkov '43 based on AAR's. The standard tactic seems to be to refit, something that simply wasn't possible historically.

The sequence seems to be:
-Either the attacker breaks through quickly, so the defenders can't refit, in which case it's a fairly quick victory for him

or

-An event occurs which allows the defender to withdraw or at the least not face attacks. In Normandy, it's the storm. In winter East Front scenarios it seems to be the mobility the Germans still have which allows them to pull back and rest before the Soviets can reach them.

Volcano Man recently rebalanced France '14, as losses were also ahistorical due to both sides being able to draw significant replacements, which combined with a low point value for objectives unbalanced the scenario in favour of the French the longer it lasted.

In Moscow '42, the Soviets are both slow and face storms, as well as being Fixed in some sectors. As a result, attacking in some sectors is just not productive as you know the Germans will be near full strength when you get there. It's impossible to launch some of the historical attacks covered in the small scenarios, because by the time you reach their starting point in the campaign, the Germans have refitted (and so have your men, but as you face the rigid assault limit, it favours the Germans).

-Meanwhile, the German mobile units have generally refitted at least to some extent, many being near full strength. The first attacks are launched and attacks in the center become slow.

-The main reason why problem 2 ends up being such a big problem, is because this series is one of the few series where the attack/assault system is quite rigid as the assault limit is purely determined by stacking limits for a single hex. This heavily favours the defender when he has better quality units than the attacker. In this scenario, the Germans are not only of a better quality but are also at least 33% larger in terms of maximum manpower than their Soviet counterparts.

As soon as you start losing 20 men per shot fired at your units, your attack stalls real quick. It's even worse when facing Schuetzen units.

On this timescale, you can only slowly grind German units down, making them gain fatigue, but your losses are often so high it's not really possible to break through.

-As the historical way of attacking is difficult to impossible due to advantages the Germans get, I tend to concentrate ahistorical numbers of units in some areas to achieve a breakthrough through sheer firepower. Due to the terrain and because it can refit less, the preferred target is 2nd Panzer Group. After about two weeks, it's hit by hundreds of tanks and 40 artillery and rocket units. Against such a storm, resistance of frontline units crumbles in just a couple of turns. It's a 1944-style steamroller that's very difficult to stop. Many tanks are not worth much, but there are many and you can whack the German tanks with your artillery. Katyusha's have an excellent hard attack value for some reason as well.

I usually stop at that point, as it just isn't fun: in the north and center, near Kalinin and on the major road heading west where the Sturm division starts, a large concentration of Soviet units backed by a large concentration of artillery is grinding its way west. Elsewhere, the Germans hit Soviet infantry hard at their leisure with local counterattacks. In the south, a large ever increasing hole is blown in the German line and 2nd Panzer Group quickly loses cohesion.

Such tactics are possible because there are no clearly defined areas of operation or limits on how many units can be supported by the same road due to simplified C&C and logistics mechanics.

I really like the scenario as such, but it can quickly break down into an ahistorical brawl due to the overstrength Germans and huge Soviet artillery concentrations (for the period).

I haven't tried Fall Kreml yet, but I imagine those 24 Katyusha units can also cause very high losses to German units when concentrated. That's just sort of the problem: the most efficient way to use the units is concentrating them, which is ahistorical but there's no mechanic preventing you from doing so.

Large artillery and unit concentrations might be considered to be gamey, with some good reason, but so are nearly full strength German units. One ahistorical situation leads to the next.

That's one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to battles with limits on the amount of artillery that can be fired at a hex and that don't last long enough for the replacement mechanics to unbalance the scenario.

[Strela]

ComradeP,

Firstly I appreciate your commentary. It's obvious that you've looked closely at the mechanics and pulled out the areas that are causing ahistorical results.

As you quite rightly mention, it's more historical in the shorter scenarios where the vagaries of time do not skew the results.

As a designer (and I mention this in the design notes) there are two limiting factors. The first is history itself - what was available and when. The second is the mechanics you have to simulate various events in the actual game system. I know you have done some work with Matrix Games so you are aware of what I am talking about. One example of these mechanics are the replacement/reinforcement routines in Panzer Campaigns. We have three possibilities for strength recovery, the existing one via the OB, the %age as per the PDT file or no replacements. None of them can give the exact result we want for Moscow '42, but they do a pretty good job for every other game in the series.

Why don't they in Moscow '42? Because we created one of the longest scenarios in one of the most extreme environments. Because of the time line, units technically should get no replacements for the first month to six weeks and a trickle after that, but there is no mechanic to represent that. It can be handled ok in the shorter scenarios, but it is a compromise in the larger ones. That said there are alternatives - what if the frozen penalty was upped against the German's? Those extra men are now just as inefficient as the ones already there when it's cold? What if supply sources are reduced again to make most units out of ammo? There are different ways to hobble a side or boost the other.

The challenge is testing in depth a monster like the Moscow '42 winter campaign. I can tell you its not possible. The normal way we test is to create the overall campaign then break it into smaller parts and test those to ensure that it works and then take any learnings & adjustments back into the larger game and hope it all holds together. The fact is that at 576 turns, after turn one you're into hypothetical territory. The players bias (you used the example of moving extra resources to Kalinin as an example) change the flow of the game and no designer can cover off all the permutations.

Now all of that said, if there are glaring issues that can be fixed they will be fixed. Just look at Kharkov '43 where we issued the Alternative versions of the larger campaigns to fix some of the issues that were identified by the community. I am happy to do the same for Moscow '42 but look for consistent feedback from members of the community - preferably playing head to head as that is where the most exploits and issues are found.

So my commitment to you is that I'll look at doing at alternate version of the Winter Campaign after I have canvassed further opinions from the community BUT it will have to wait another couple of months while I finish my current project.

David