Questions about Moscow '42 Campaign Fall Kreml (North)

[The Bishop]

Has anyone played Fall Kreml (North) through? We are about 77/118 turns through. Currently I'm on the cusp of a major victory with the axis. My opponent is getting quite frustrated by his inability to get any releases which means I am generally overrunning and destroying in detail any soviet formations I encounter.

I haven't looked at the soviet side, so this is mostly just me running along roads until I bump into a mine/bunker location; clearing it; and moving on.

We're trying to understand how both the releases work, and the expectation of how the Soviet player should defend in this case.

Any information, suggestions, thoughts welcome. I know I've only provided basic info here. Happy to provide more once I know what's needed. And my opponent should also be posting to give you the perspective from the Soviet side.

It's a great scenario, but seems a bit frustrating for the soviet player.

[miller41]

This would be his opponent and all he says is true, as the soviet side over half my forces which should release have not, which has tied down many troops which i could have used to attack the german spearheads. Now i can understand some delays but it have been almost a week in game time and no releases, and now most of thos units are either surrounded or in the front line unable to move until it is way to late. I am going to lose this game without being able to do anything, which sems very wrong to me. Is this as intended or do we have a problem with the release mechanism in the scenario? We have sunk a lot of time into this game and now it seems a waste.

Thanks for any input.

[Strela]

Has anyone played Fall Kreml (North) through? We are about 77/118 turns through. Currently I'm on the cusp of a major victory with the axis. My opponent is getting quite frustrated by his inability to get any releases which means I am generally overrunning and destroying in detail any soviet formations I encounter.

I haven't looked at the soviet side, so this is mostly just me running along roads until I bump into a mine/bunker location; clearing it; and moving on.

We're trying to understand how both the releases work, and the expectation of how the Soviet player should defend in this case.

Any information, suggestions, thoughts welcome. I know I've only provided basic info here. Happy to provide more once I know what's needed. And my opponent should also be posting to give you the perspective from the Soviet side.

It's a great scenario, but seems a bit frustrating for the soviet player.

Hello,

As the scenario designer I am probably best to answer some of your questions;

As far as releases, here is a consolidated table of the releases in the scenario. You can see this level of detail under the menu item 'Units / Releases'.




A couple of things to note here. There are four different types of releases; 0%T, 5%T, 100%T & 100%.

All the items marked XXX%T have that percentage chance of releasing from the date/time shown OR if they sight an enemy unit. For example the units marked 0%T will ONLY release if they sight an enemy. They are essentially locked down unless an Axis unit comes in their general direction. The items marked 5%T will roll every turn from the date/time to release. With a 5% chance they should be available within two days of starting to 'roll the dice'. Finally both the 100%T & 100% are guaranteed to be available on the appropriate date/time. The difference between these two is that if the 100%T sees the enemy before the date/time the whole formation is released while the 100% units will only release the units that sight the enemy.

Does that make sense?

For the Soviet player it will feel like he is speed bumps at times to the Panzers. He has to play like a Soviet, continue to throw units in front of the Germans to slow them down. Target the German infantry & Panzer Grenadiers at every opportunity with artillery. The Germans do not have a lot of these and will need them when the time comes to fight in the bigger towns and cities. The other priority target is German engineering units. They are key for clearing minefields or leading assaults against bunker lines. The Soviet has to attrite them every time he sees them.

The German also runs into some bigger challenges as they approach Moscow. If they haven't cleared their flanks as they move forward (easier in this scenario than the full Kreml campaigns) they will start to have very long defensive lines. The arriving Hungarians will help here but at C & D morale are worthy targets for an aggressive Soviet. Supply also dwindles the closer you get to Moscow and more units will be unavailable/low ammo/low fuel just when you need them fully operational.

Finally, it looks like the victory points are wrong if you have a Major Victory so far from Moscow - you have killed more enemy troops than expected. It looks like you're at Kubinka and just cracking the second defensive line. In my opinion, if you haven't taken Moscow by the end, I would say that is a clear victory for the Soviets...! You've got forty turns left to do it and quite a few enemy forces starting to activate from July 6th....!

Interested to hear how the rest of the scenario plays out - this & the Maximum Effort North scenario are the most likely to get to the Soviet capital.

David

---

This would be his opponent and all he says is true, as the soviet side over half my forces which should release have not, which has tied down many troops which i could have used to attack the german spearheads. Now i can understand some delays but it have been almost a week in game time and no releases, and now most of thos units are either surrounded or in the front line unable to move until it is way to late. I am going to lose this game without being able to do anything, which sems very wrong to me. Is this as intended or do we have a problem with the release mechanism in the scenario? We have sunk a lot of time into this game and now it seems a waste.

Thanks for any input.

Miller41,

If you want to send me a save file (and password) to the email in my contact details, I'll look over it and see if there are any issues with the releases you have/haven't had.

Thanks,

David

[The Bishop]

Thanks for the quick response. I'm within 1000 pts of a major, and near an objective that will give me that. Although I think I will only have about 9000 of the requisite 18000 from objectives. The rest is from destruction of forces.

I'll post the victory screen (tentative at this point in the match) once I get the turn back.

Your feedback much appreciated.
Sean

Has anyone played Fall Kreml (North) through? We are about 77/118 turns through. Currently I'm on the cusp of a major victory with the axis. My opponent is getting quite frustrated by his inability to get any releases which means I am generally overrunning and destroying in detail any soviet formations I encounter.

I haven't looked at the soviet side, so this is mostly just me running along roads until I bump into a mine/bunker location; clearing it; and moving on.

We're trying to understand how both the releases work, and the expectation of how the Soviet player should defend in this case.

Any information, suggestions, thoughts welcome. I know I've only provided basic info here. Happy to provide more once I know what's needed. And my opponent should also be posting to give you the perspective from the Soviet side.

It's a great scenario, but seems a bit frustrating for the soviet player.

Hello,

As the scenario designer I am probably best to answer some of your questions;

As far as releases, here is a consolidated table of the releases in the scenario. You can see this level of detail under the menu item 'Units / Releases'.




A couple of things to note here. There are four different types of releases; 0%T, 5%T, 100%T & 100%.

All the items marked XXX%T have that percentage chance of releasing from the date/time shown OR if they sight an enemy unit. For example the units marked 0%T will ONLY release if they sight an enemy. They are essentially locked down unless an Axis unit comes in their general direction. The items marked 5%T will roll every turn from the date/time to release. With a 5% chance they should be available within two days of starting to 'roll the dice'. Finally both the 100%T & 100% are guaranteed to be available on the appropriate date/time. The difference between these two is that if the 100%T sees the enemy before the date/time the whole formation is released while the 100% units will only release the units that sight the enemy.

Does that make sense?

For the Soviet player it will feel like he is speed bumps at times to the Panzers. He has to play like a Soviet, continue to throw units in front of the Germans to slow them down. Target the German infantry & Panzer Grenadiers at every opportunity with artillery. The Germans do not have a lot of these and will need them when the time comes to fight in the bigger towns and cities. The other priority target is German engineering units. They are key for clearing minefields or leading assaults against bunker lines. The Soviet has to attrite them every time he sees them.

The German also runs into some bigger challenges as they approach Moscow. If they haven't cleared their flanks as they move forward (easier in this scenario than the full Kreml campaigns) they will start to have very long defensive lines. The arriving Hungarians will help here but at C & D morale are worthy targets for an aggressive Soviet. Supply also dwindles the closer you get to Moscow and more units will be unavailable/low ammo/low fuel just when you need them fully operational.

Finally, it looks like the victory points are wrong if you have a Major Victory so far from Moscow - you have killed more enemy troops than expected. It looks like you're at Kubinka and just cracking the second defensive line. In my opinion, if you haven't taken Moscow by the end, I would say that is a clear victory for the Soviets...! You've got forty turns left to do it and quite a few enemy forces starting to activate from July 6th....!

Interested to hear how the rest of the scenario plays out - this & the Maximum Effort North scenario are the most likely to get to the Soviet capital.

David

---

This would be his opponent and all he says is true, as the soviet side over half my forces which should release have not, which has tied down many troops which i could have used to attack the german spearheads. Now i can understand some delays but it have been almost a week in game time and no releases, and now most of thos units are either surrounded or in the front line unable to move until it is way to late. I am going to lose this game without being able to do anything, which sems very wrong to me. Is this as intended or do we have a problem with the release mechanism in the scenario? We have sunk a lot of time into this game and now it seems a waste.

Thanks for any input.

Miller41,

If you want to send me a save file (and password) to the email in my contact details, I'll look over it and see if there are any issues with the releases you have/haven't had.

Thanks,

David

[ComradeP]

I was also wondering if the release schedules for Fall Kreml were not a bit too restrictive for the Soviets in some variants. On one hand, it is implied the historical deception operation worked because the Soviets prepared for it, but in the game their release schedule for a number of sectors in all variants is slow, which would point to the Soviets being unprepared: their mobile reserves often need to wait for days before they can do anything, even if they're fairly close to the frontline.

In the sectors where the Soviets have only a thin line without reserves directly behind them, this could allow them to break through and carve up the units piecemeal as they're thrown into the German path, because it seems difficult to concentrate mobile reserves as the Soviets due to the release schedule working against you. By avoiding coming within spotting ranges, the Germans could also "game" the release system in certain locations.

It might all be much more of a problem in theory than in practice, but my first reaction when I saw the Soviet release schedule was: How am I to attack the German flanks to slow them down if coordinating mobile unit attacks will be so difficult?

[Strela]

I was also wondering if the release schedules for Fall Kreml were not a bit too restrictive for the Soviets in some variants. On one hand, it is implied the historical deception operation worked because the Soviets prepared for it, but in the game their release schedule for a number of sectors in all variants is slow, which would point to the Soviets being unprepared: their mobile reserves often need to wait for days before they can do anything, even if they're fairly close to the frontline.

In the sectors where the Soviets have only a thin line without reserves directly behind them, this could allow them to break through and carve up the units piecemeal as they're thrown into the German path, because it seems difficult to concentrate mobile reserves as the Soviets due to the release schedule working against you. By avoiding coming within spotting ranges, the Germans could also "game" the release system in certain locations.

It might all be much more of a problem in theory than in practice, but my first reaction when I saw the Soviet release schedule was: How am I to attack the German flanks to slow them down if coordinating mobile unit attacks will be so difficult?

The intention with the scenario design (successful or not) was that the bulk of the mobile forces would not start releasing till the second defensive line was reached. As mentioned with a 5% release schedule all these units should become available over a 1 - 2 day period. The idea was that Stavka/Stalin would not commit the final reserve until they felt Moscow was threatened.

From what I can glean from the map, the Germans have just reached the second defence line and by my calculations are at July 5th or 6th.

This scenario is probably harder than the full campaign as there is a Tank army just off maps to the south that would play a role in any attack in the northern sector and I probably need to look at adding that in to the mix - earlier than July 6th.

Lets see how this plays out and I can make a call - don't underestimate the distance the Germans have to left to reach Moscow and that's before clearing the city....

David

[The Bishop]

You're right about the time. It's the night of July 5/6

Here's the current victory report. Happy to share my side of the game and password too if necessary.

From what I can glean from the map, the Germans have just reached the second defence line and by my calculations are at July 5th or 6th.

This scenario is probably harder than the full campaign as there is a Tank army just off maps to the south that would play a role in any attack in the northern sector and I probably need to look at adding that in to the mix - earlier than July 6th.

Lets see how this plays out and I can make a call - don't underestimate the distance the Germans have to left to reach Moscow and that's before clearing the city....

David

[miller41]

All i will say is that the victory conditions are not good, russian player has almost no chance as the mobile forces you get are not movable until after the german player has a major victory and can just stop and defend. There is no reason for him to go any further and the russina forces are so brittle they cannot hop to dislodge the germans or surround them. Troops outside of forts last maybe one or two rounds before they become combat ineffective. The release schedule should not have the moscow defense zone even listed if the troops have no hope of releasing unless the germans trigger them, this would keep unknowing russian players from thinking they might get to move them when they can't. He only needs to clear moscow if he feels like trying, the victory conditions don't force him too at this point. If i had known this I would have fallen back all along the line to try and save my forces, probably wouldn't have worked as the germans are much faster than the russians

[The Bishop]

I'd say that if I can take and hold the two objectives I am near I'd likely consolidate on them rather than running for Moscow. Since I made some poor road choices much of my followup infantry is likely too far back to participate on the attack on Moscow but would be able to protect the objectives I've taken.

So the combination of forces destroyed and objectives taken mean I could prepare for his counterattack in place (maybe one more day of offensive I think). As I understand it from you, David, that's not really the purpose of this scenario.

It has been fun, but all along I've been expecting my spearheads to get a hammering sooner or later. Not sure if we've played unexpectedly or the scenario needs a bit of tweaking.

Thanks again for any feedback.

All i will say is that the victory conditions are not good, russian player has almost no chance as the mobile forces you get are not movable until after the german player has a major victory and can just stop and defend. There is no reason for him to go any further and the russina forces are so brittle they cannot hop to dislodge the germans or surround them. Troops outside of forts last maybe one or two rounds before they become combat ineffective. The release schedule should not have the moscow defense zone even listed if the troops have no hope of releasing unless the germans trigger them, this would keep unknowing russian players from thinking they might get to move them when they can't. He only needs to clear moscow if he feels like trying, the victory conditions don't force him too at this point. If i had known this I would have fallen back all along the line to try and save my forces, probably wouldn't have worked as the germans are much faster than the russians

[Strela]

I'd say that if I can take and hold the two objectives I am near I'd likely consolidate on them rather than running for Moscow. Since I made some poor road choices much of my followup infantry is likely too far back to participate on the attack on Moscow but would be able to protect the objectives I've taken.

So the combination of forces destroyed and objectives taken mean I could prepare for his counterattack in place (maybe one more day of offensive I think). As I understand it from you, David, that's not really the purpose of this scenario.

It has been fun, but all along I've been expecting my spearheads to get a hammering sooner or later. Not sure if we've played unexpectedly or the scenario needs a bit of tweaking.

Thanks again for any feedback.

All i will say is that the victory conditions are not good, russian player has almost no chance as the mobile forces you get are not movable until after the german player has a major victory and can just stop and defend. There is no reason for him to go any further and the russina forces are so brittle they cannot hop to dislodge the germans or surround them. Troops outside of forts last maybe one or two rounds before they become combat ineffective. The release schedule should not have the moscow defense zone even listed if the troops have no hope of releasing unless the germans trigger them, this would keep unknowing russian players from thinking they might get to move them when they can't. He only needs to clear moscow if he feels like trying, the victory conditions don't force him too at this point. If i had known this I would have fallen back all along the line to try and save my forces, probably wouldn't have worked as the germans are much faster than the russians

Guys,

As someone mentioned in another post at times in these larger scenarios the victory conditions are more art form than science. Much of this comes from different play styles and other variations.

That said, you are where you should be on the chronology and the VP's are off. I will look at changing these in the next patch/update.

I'd be very happy to give you new victory targets to reflect the job 'left to do'. Sean, I don't want you resting on your laurels yet!

I just need to have a look at both save files and I can provide the updated VP targets.

David