The Competition & Teaser Thread

[Strela]

However, numerous smaller units mean more units to move and fire with each turn, which could discourage some people from playing larger scenarios, if they feel they have to micromanage many units in order to use them effectively (moving a whole bunch of 3 gun units instead of a handful of ~6 or ~12 gun units, if not even bigger ones). I don't mind, personally, but I can see why some might feel it's a bit cumbersome for a whole corps.

Their pictures are, anyway.

Where possible (on attack) the Infantry & AT Guns are stacked together to allow them to be moved and fired as you suggest as a single entity. Usually they lag a mobile attack and are more useful in set piece assaults or on the defence. I was concerned about the counter clutter also, but in many scenarios we have only provided the units that were actually engaged and some supporting arms or specialist troop never make an appearance. I guess all will be revealed once the scenarios are available.


As far as leaders, all regimental units and above (and in some cases battalions) have named leaders. The appropriate leader photos has been used where available. This means the order of battle has hundreds of historical leaders in the correct command slot. We first started this named leader approach in PzC Moscow '42.

Here are the photos of the men in question and the associated named component.




David

[Xaver]

Thanks for the image, but you dont find the HQ size a little big??? practically double the PzC size in soldiers, i do some years ago a refit of a mod (it has HQ at btl level) and first thing i do was reduce the number of soldiers in HQ to move them to combat units... 185 soldiers is a lot for a non combat unit, in PzC destroy a 100 men divisional HQ is not a fast action (well if you isolated it... and here has more or less soldiers doesnt affect speed) and see 185 in a lower level... i dont expect the casualties per turn be incredible high and really think made a division win 100 or more soldiers to fighting units is interesting.

Oooo something i dont remember ask, the AT units, arty units and in general this support units... need be in travel mode to move??? or you can move them 1 hex when are deployed using all their action points??? at this scale reposition AT guns for examples is not rare.

And a little thing, last image is the number 23 but the image showing the corps units is 21.... 22 is MIA???

[ComradeP]

Hmm, what Xaver mentions is another point that requires micromanagement which some might find tedious: even if you keep the support weapons stacked, they still have different movement rates. This would again possibly be a primarily German problem as the Soviet motorpool was less diverse in terms of vehicles used by certain unit types and their infantry divisions would rely even more on horse transports than the Germans.

For example, in the HW/support stack in the screenshot, the RSO's would be moving at about 30 kilometres per hour tops, the Sd.Kfz. 7's at 50 km/hour tops on roads but only about 20 km/hour off-road, the Opel Blitz and abstracted other trucks could move about 80 km/hour and about 20 km/hour in non-mud off-road conditions respectively.

-

In addition to Xaver's comments on small unit vs. bigger unit performance: with unlimited return fire, smaller units are also at a disadvantage of sorts as more of them have to fire compared to larger units. Their fatigue would also increase more quickly. Concentrated fire to take the units out one by one could be quite effective, and when the PaK 40's are gone the Germans already lose a big chunk of their AT capabilities.

The survival chance of individual units composed of guns or a low number of vehicles might thus be lower than in PzC, which isn't necessarily problematic, it's just an observation. I wonder what kind of strategies the playtesters use to keep their opponents from cherry picking their best units off first.

As far as leaders, all regimental units and above (and in some cases battalions) have named leaders. The appropriate leader photos has been used where available. This means the order of battle has hundreds of historical leaders in the correct command slot. We first started this named leader approach in PzC Moscow '42.

The detail is appreciated.

All things considered, this thread should show the development team that at least the community over here is excited about the upcoming series.

-

With the new hidden unit and spotting rules, as well as the various other changes, is it still possible to fire at units in unspotted hexes with indirect fire if the terrain blocks LOS but the visibility range would normally allow the unit to be spotted?

That's one of the minor annoyances of PzC for me: let's say an enemy unit is behind a woods hex and the visibility range is 2. If you move a unit into the woods hex (and back out in this case) to discover that there's a unit on the other side, or if you know there's a unit there, you can still target it with indirect fire even if artillery fire by the map is off. This unspotted fire can still cause considerable losses to the defender.

[Xaver]

Ummm i feel PzB arty/air support is going to work like in WWI serie where you plot arty attack (and maybe air support) in an hex in your turn plot the attack and in enemy turn or in your next turn (i think in soviets and his problems to use arty fast in unexpected situations out of pre-planed attacks) you see the attack effects.

I am excited maybe because a game at this scale is rare... even more, i think now in 2nd PzB title (a littlle less in "Armored battles" hehehe) and i have a big tentation to create a poll for 2nd PzB title... i really find now great has PzB: Crusader 1941 as 2nd title in serie

[Strela]

Thanks for the image, but you dont find the HQ size a little big??? practically double the PzC size in soldiers, i do some years ago a refit of a mod (it has HQ at btl level) and first thing i do was reduce the number of soldiers in HQ to move them to combat units... 185 soldiers is a lot for a non combat unit, in PzC destroy a 100 men divisional HQ is not a fast action (well if you isolated it... and here has more or less soldiers doesnt affect speed) and see 185 in a lower level... i dont expect the casualties per turn be incredible high and really think made a division win 100 or more soldiers to fighting units is interesting.

Oooo something i dont remember ask, the AT units, arty units and in general this support units... need be in travel mode to move??? or you can move them 1 hex when are deployed using all their action points??? at this scale reposition AT guns for examples is not rare.

And a little thing, last image is the number 23 but the image showing the corps units is 21.... 22 is MIA???

As far as the HQ sizes, the Divisional HQ's are a full company and not a platoon. Mike A, when doing the OB used Panzertruppen KstN 51 Kommando einer Panzerdivision 1-11-41. This had 124 men in the Stabs Quarter and that is before officers are included. Must have been a lot of aide de camps! All up the 185 men is correct.

That said HQ's are definitely not combat formations. You don't want them anywhere near the front line and with an assault value of one very prone to quick removal.



Here is an example of the different levels of HQ's in 6th Panzer Division. You'll note that from Regiment down most are around a platoon in size.





As far as support weapons most still have to limber up. Mortars don't and for some strange reason I noticed last night neither do Nebelwerfers. I need to work out why.... That said there are plenty of movement points if you want to reposition the gun a short distance and set it up again.


The MIA image 22? It's there - someone of your investigative skills should be able to find it Xaver :)

---

Hmm, what Xaver mentions is another point that requires micromanagement which some might find tedious: even if you keep the support weapons stacked, they still have different movement rates. This would again possibly be a primarily German problem as the Soviet motorpool was less diverse in terms of vehicles used by certain unit types and their infantry divisions would rely even more on horse transports than the Germans.

For example, in the HW/support stack in the screenshot, the RSO's would be moving at about 30 kilometres per hour tops, the Sd.Kfz. 7's at 50 km/hour tops on roads but only about 20 km/hour off-road, the Opel Blitz and abstracted other trucks could move about 80 km/hour and about 20 km/hour in non-mud off-road conditions respectively.

-

In addition to Xaver's comments on small unit vs. bigger unit performance: with unlimited return fire, smaller units are also at a disadvantage of sorts as more of them have to fire compared to larger units. Their fatigue would also increase more quickly. Concentrated fire to take the units out one by one could be quite effective, and when the PaK 40's are gone the Germans already lose a big chunk of their AT capabilities.

The survival chance of individual units composed of guns or a low number of vehicles might thus be lower than in PzC, which isn't necessarily problematic, it's just an observation. I wonder what kind of strategies the playtesters use to keep their opponents from cherry picking their best units off first.

All things considered, this thread should show the development team that at least the community over here is excited about the upcoming series.

-

With the new hidden unit and spotting rules, as well as the various other changes, is it still possible to fire at units in unspotted hexes with indirect fire if the terrain blocks LOS but the visibility range would normally allow the unit to be spotted?

That's one of the minor annoyances of PzC for me: let's say an enemy unit is behind a woods hex and the visibility range is 2. If you move a unit into the woods hex (and back out in this case) to discover that there's a unit on the other side, or if you know there's a unit there, you can still target it with indirect fire even if artillery fire by the map is off. This unspotted fire can still cause considerable losses to the defender.

In my experience there has been minimal issues with the movement rates of guns etc. None of the play testers have commented negatively that I am aware of.

Survival of important weapons such as AT guns is catered for in game, particularly with the persistent concealment rule. As mentioned there is more to reveal on this (so to speak!) later.

As far as unspotted artillery fire, the answer is no - unless the 'By the map' optional rule is selected. Importantly to counter the 'gamey' tactic you mention artillery and air can only be spotted for by units that have expended zero movement points. In the example you use, though newly revealed the enemy unit could not be targeted unless it was in the LOS of an unmoved friendly unit. Phasing is very important in PzB.

Finally, with over 12,000 views & 200 posts in this thread, I am getting a positive feeling.

It was a concern with some of the initial negativity in the first couple of pages, but hopefully people are seeing the passion, effort and thought we have put into this project.

---

Ummm i feel PzB arty/air support is going to work like in WWI serie where you plot arty attack (and maybe air support) in an hex in your turn plot the attack and in enemy turn or in your next turn (i think in soviets and his problems to use arty fast in unexpected situations out of pre-planed attacks) you see the attack effects.

I am excited maybe because a game at this scale is rare... even more, i think now in 2nd PzB title (a littlle less in "Armored battles" hehehe) and i have a big tentation to create a poll for 2nd PzB title... i really find now great has PzB: Crusader 1941 as 2nd title in serie

Artillery does not require plotting but is limited in the amount that can hit any one particular hex (did I mention that before?).

Air on the other hand does require plotting and will strike before the players next turn starts. More to follow on air another day.....!



As far as future titles, there are things in the pipeline. I'm not the 'Desert' guy, but I can really see this game system working well there.....

David

[Xaver]

I find the missing 22 pic, i dont download it, i upload it in other forum but i dont have it in my PzB images folder

Ummm i expect see arty with a plot system, at least the big guns (105mm to 203mm and rocket units) because we talk about 30 minutes turns and arty cant reaction apart that with this assaults need timing but well, is only something i think now and could be not good in game... lets see with air support how works.

Well, i am not a desert guy to but maybe because i see very few good games in desert, i think in CMAK, Tobruk41 and i can add Tunis43... i dont say El Alamein is bad but how works minefields in PzC... is something i never like a lot, but as campaign is very interesting, you cant marry with a position because enemy can isolated it and create a temporal prisoners camp and in general you need use recon more than in other scens, terrain doesnt help you to cover your flanks and only scout certain gap... is a scen bad if you dont want surprises hehehehe.

Oooo a little question, any change in "low ammo" and "isolated" rules??? with infinite defensive fire units enter in low ammo easier??? and well you can isolate an unit doing ZOC and if unit shoot in same turn enter in low ammo status??? this is other of the little things that made me "hate" Tiller engine (i never understand why units dont have an ammo/fuel %).

Again thanks for the info and waiting more.... but if is release date or game much better

[Strela]

Oooo a little question, any change in "low ammo" and "isolated" rules??? with infinite defensive fire units enter in low ammo easier??? and well you can isolate an unit doing ZOC and if unit shoot in same turn enter in low ammo status??? this is other of the little things that made me "hate" Tiller engine (i never understand why units dont have an ammo/fuel %).

Again thanks for the info and waiting more.... but if is release date or game much better

Yep!!


From the FAQ;

Units other than Artillery do not go Low Ammo when isolated. This is to represent the ammo combat load that units carried with them. Units can be set as starting with Low Ammo in a scenario if required.

David

[jimcrowley]

Finally, with over 12,000 views & 200 posts in this thread, I am getting a positive feeling.

It was a concern with some of the initial negativity in the first couple of pages, but hopefully people are seeing the passion, effort and thought we have put into this project.

Artillery does not require plotting but is limited in the amount that can hit any one particular hex (did I mention that before?).

Air on the other hand does require plotting and will strike before the players next turn starts. More to follow on air another day.....!

As far as future titles, there are things in the pipeline. I'm not the 'Desert' guy, but I can really see this game system working well there.....

David

I think there was a lot more positive, than negative, reaction in the first few pages and that has only grown since. This is obviously a very different game to either PzC or SB and I for one am very much looking forward to something pitched at this scale. Liking the sound of the new features mentioned so far.

In regard to artillery; who can be used as a spotter? Hopefully not every unit can spot as that would not be very realistic, particularly with smaller platoon sized units that would almost certainly not be equipped with radios.

I would also favour a desert based second game - I think battles in and around Tunisia would offer a lot of diversity in combatants, equipment and types of battle. Alternatively, early war battles in France could also be interesting.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

12,000 views and 200 posts and you are just now getting a positive feeling? Tough to please. :)

I'm wondering about supply. Can units run out of ammo? What about reupply? Many was the time a unit could fire through their ammo in a short period of heavy combat.

Couldn't find an icon of one smiley slapping another smiley around..............

Hurry <slap> and <slap> get <slap> the <slap> game <slap> released <slap> al <slap> rea <slap> dy. <slap> <slap> <slap>

If you don't, this will be you and your nuts!

Just kidding. Best to cross your Ts and dot your i's first.

[Compass Rose]

I would also favour a desert based second game - I think battles in and around Tunisia would offer a lot of diversity in combatants, equipment and types of battle. Alternatively, early war battles in France could also be interesting.

I know for the last several years I have seen numerous guys on the forum boards talk about wishing the PzC series would dip into the Pacific Theater however, the standard answer was that the size covered in PzC would be way too big to be able to handle fighting on small sized islands.

Judging on the size of this new series, I think some titles covering the Pacific War would be a most welcome idea.