The Competition & Teaser Thread

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

I've often wondered about smoke in these smaller scale battles as to how long do smoke grenades, smoke rounds and possible smoke pots last? Also at the smaller scales like this and SBs, wouldn't the possibility of lasting more than one turn exist and drift taken into account so that a smoke screen or round would drift in a certain direction or is that going too far?

[Aaron]

I've often wondered about smoke in these smaller scale battles as to how long do smoke grenades, smoke rounds and possible smoke pots last? Also at the smaller scales like this and SBs, wouldn't the possibility of lasting more than one turn exist and drift taken into account so that a smoke screen or round would drift in a certain direction or is that going too far?

Ill say this that height was taken into account so it is possible to fire at units over it if your unit is high enough. As far as wind drift, there is none because theres no wind. The weather is abstracted but the visability can change by turn.

Aaron

[Xaver]

To be fair for me smoke needs be an unit feature... every unit has a certain number of "smoke shoots" even infantry and tanks, the idea is have 2 smoke types, one tactical with a bonus in defense for units in and behind smoke screen (tanks can have 1 or 2 smokes shoots and infantry same) and a arty smoke screen that block LOS over units behind the screen and units inside the screen BUT the units can shoot like the tactical smoke screen.

I allways feel that Tiller engines need provide more value to units in these things, need be controled at unit level, i think in smoke, reserve ammo (units only enter in isolated status when use all this ammo, a number of turns that an unit can be isolated BUT without the negative morale bonus and 50% chance to be low ammo) or even add a leader feature for units, units with a "leader" have some bonus, a way to improve units power without touch the unit quality.

Oooo maybe the red counter is an unit from Santa´s secret red army??? i am scared LOL.

[ComradeP]

Strela: I must've missed the reply to why the platoon designation stays even when merged into a company. It makes sense that as the infantry's just one part of a company, it isn't represented as the full company. Never having played pre-Moscow '42 titles where German battalions seem to have 3 companies and HW support instead of 4 companies, I wasn't aware how it was handled before.

Outlaw Josey Wales and Xaver: keep in mind that the scale is 250 meters per hex, which means only a barrage applied by artillery could cover the entire area. Infantry or tanks popping smoke would in most cases only protect themselves and a small area around them.

[Xaver]

This is why i talk about 2 smoke types, "tactical" and "arty smoke".

Infantry units and tanks have tactical smoke screens, with range 0 (they deploy smoke in the hex they are) and this smoke doesnt block enemy LOS, the smoke add a defensive bonus to units in the hex and behind the hex, lets see that smoke can increase or the unit defensive values or maybe add a protection bonus to units in the hex/behind the hex, and the duration of smoke is only the player turn, in enemy turn the smoke dissapear (you use the smoke when you play the turn but when do it enemy is not present) enemy LOS is not affected, think that the smoke used by tanks or infantry is a small bonus to camo their movements but not necesary enemy cant shoot because the density is lower than an arty barrage and cover less front.

Maybe for me the problem with control smoke as a general value is that you never have enough and you need arty to use it, sometimes i dont need a sea of smoke, i only need reduce certain unit exposition to enemy bullets.

PD: PzB forum... my "game is coming" feelings are

[Dog Soldier]

Smoke is artillery deployed only. As Strela said, we did not want the battlefield to become a smoke filled haze.

Having individual units deploy their own smoke is beyond the scope of this game's mechanics and scale. It should be considered deployed as needed by the unit commander and his troops as it is built into the defense factor of a unit. It is limited by the scenario designer, so you have to think a bit before using it.

If I use smoke now I get an advantage I want. But what about five turns from now if I use up my smoke? Or should I use it now anyways as who knows what my needs will be by then? Will I need smoke 5-10 turns from now? And so on and so forth as the merry-go-round spins in your mind.

This is just one example of choices a player will make that may come back to bite them later in the scenario. The really small scenarios are not much easier to use smoke (when available). There are less rounds in smaller scenarios. One will find there are a lot of places you want smoke, and not enough to go around. That is, not for all the turns in a scenario.

Dog Soldier

[Xaver]

Well, smoke is not infinite, even arty can run out of smoke, if an unit have 1 "tactical smoke" shoot it has one is a single use "bonus" when you use it only the arty smoke is avaliable... and well at this scale the use of smoke is not something strange, think in an assault platoon for example, they use smoke to or if PzB move to the west i dont think that the use of smoke by for example shermans be out of scope (apart that 5 panzers using it is not rare specially in later war).

If we talk about 500m scale i can understand no smoke but at 250m... and in the end the smoke used doesnt block enemy LOS, it only increase in the moment the unit defensive value something usefull when you want launch an assault for example to enter in contact with enemy with a defensive bonus.

This is my feeling about this something that can change when i play game.

[Dog Soldier]

So if you have a stack of units in a hex, are you saying one of those units can deploy smoke to cover all the units in the hex? If not, how would each player know which units have a smoke benefit and which do not? How would the art work represent such a situation?

I think your idea could result in some unintended consequences and gamey results. These are part of the reasons we decided not to get that fine a detail with smoke.

Now Squad Battles is a different scale. In that series, smoke does work closer to how you suggest. If you have not played a Squad Battles game, you might talk with the folks on that forum about single unit smoke deployment.

Dog Soldier

[Xaver]

Well, you dont use stacking limits to affect unit defensive value??? if in the hex where you deploy the tactical smoke stack is over 25% it doesnt provide defensive bonus to the units in hex.

The idea is made that when you have a company deployed in platoons or squads they can use their own smoke to reduce enemy firepower over them, you can use this to in offensive but i think more in a way to retreat exposed platoons, in the end the smoke discharges in tanks for example are used more to this.

I have squad battles titles, i never like them a lot, but i play more Steel Panthers and i remember how infantry units or tanks can deploy smoke to cover their retreat when are defeated ummm maybe this is a more correct use of smoke at the level of units???.

I dont understand why you think PzB is not at the SQB level when for me is a mix of SQB and PzC BUT you need more details in PzB compared with PzC, in the end you have 1 or 3 squads joined in a single unit and you cant leave all in a PzC abstract way.

[ComradeP]

Steel Panthers uses, IIRC, a 50 meter hex scale. A single tank could indeed cover a hex with smoke, but keep in mind that only late war German tanks had grenade launchers/smoke dischargers and other vehicles would depend on smoke ammo or smoke grenades thrown by the crew.

Before you say "5 tanks would be able to cover a 250 meter area in Steel Panthers": yes, but it's only 50 meters deep, which is why I agree with the decision to limit smoke to artillery only. Considering that the unit could be anywhere within the 250x250 meter hex, it wouldn't be realistic if it could cover the entire hex. Like Dog Soldier said, it would also be too complicated to track what units have smoke cover and what units don't if all it would mean in game terms is a slightly reduced chance of being hit.

Obviously, there's still some suspension of disbelief abstraction involved probably as I'm guessing 1 artillery piece could deliver the same amount of smoke as an entire battery, namely 1 hex worth of smoke.

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I forgot to ask, Strela, but regarding this comment of yours:

This has been fixed by having LOS only blocked by units that are 50% or more than the stacking limit.

So if you have a (stack of) unit(s) that's more than 50% of the stacking limit in size in front, followed by some other unit, and the unit/stack in front "sidesteps" allowing the unit behind it to fire before the first echelon unit/stack moves back to its position or back in front of the other unit, the defender can only ever target the second echelon unit with automatic return fire (if any)?