The Competition & Teaser Thread

[Strela]

I'm not certain what the issue is?

Not entirely sure if you're referring to what GerryM and Liebchen mentioned or what I mentioned.

I think the game models sloping terrain fairly well even at a 1km scale, but I feel line of sight being blocked by a vertical obstacle shouldn't be treated in the same way as it being blocked by sloping terrain as vertical obstacle like a group of trees blocks the entire "cone" of the line of sight, not just a small part of it.

What you mentioned. The point I was trying to make is that PzC Moscow '42 has 50 metre elevation differentials. The highest obstacle in a hex in 10 metres high. To be honest I'm not certain on the actual mechanics, but assuming a height determination is done at the centre of a hex then its easy to see a 100 metre hex from a 50 metre hex that has an intervening hex that is 60 metres high (50 metre base +10 metres for obstacles).

Two questions about opportunity fire and the spotted/hidden mechanic:

-When you explained that a unit will "override" the opportunity fire settings the player dictates if spotted, did you mean: if fired upon, considering that you imply there's no automatic detection when a unit is spotted?

-To further that point: if there's no automatic detection of whether a unit is spotted, how does the release mechanic for fixed units work? Does the fixed unit need to spot something himself, for example, instead of being spotted like in PzC (so the other way around of the PzC system)?

Firstly, this is a brand new feature that we are still trying out all the variants.

I just setup what you suggested. Two hexes with a fixed AT gun & infantry platoon in each that are concealed and a concealed enemy recon in visual range of one of the two hexes containing fixed units. The Fixed AT gun & infantry are set to never fire in AOF.

If I move no one in turn one, no units are revealed and no units fire BUT the fixed status is removed from the units that are in the vision of the hidden recon. This I believe is a bug as no unit has been spotted by the unfixed unit.

If in turn two I move a unit adjacent to the hidden units and they do not fire & reveal themselves. The other fixed unit un-fixes itself, which is ok as a revealed enemy unit has moved into visual range.

If I fire one of the hidden AT guns in its turn, it is revealed to the other player. Having removed its concealment it will subsequently fire at any targets in the defensive fire phase ignoring AOF because its been revealed.


So to answer your questions;

There is not meant to be any automatic detection by a unit when it is spotted by a hidden enemy unit. I am not certain that is working correctly as certain actions such as unfixing should only happen when a 'revealed' enemy unit is in sight in my opinion.

Units will not ignore AOF unless they have definitively been spotted or have fired themselves and removed their concealed status.

I will write up a bug report and double check I understand how this was intended to work.

Thanks for the question and I'll reiterate again that this is new code and we're trying to understand all its nuances.

David

[ComradeP]

What you mentioned. The point I was trying to make is that PzC Moscow '42 has 50 metre elevation differentials. The highest obstacle in a hex in 10 metres high. To be honest I'm not certain on the actual mechanics, but assuming a height determination is done at the centre of a hex then its easy to see a 100 metre hex from a 50 metre hex that has an intervening hex that is 60 metres high (50 metre base +10 metres for obstacles).

True, but in terms of abstraction it can lead to odd situations. For example: a unit in the center of a 100m high hex might not be able to spot a unit in the center of a 50m high hex if it's on a plateau, or the other way around, because the unit on higher elevation might be 125 meters from the start of the slope down. The unit that's higher could only spot the unit at a lower elevation with certainty if it were at the beginning of the slope down. In the case of a reverse slope defence, there might be an enemy unit on that slope down that the unit on top of the hill isn't aware of.

If the unit is on a regular hill with a fairly narrow peak area, both units might be able to spot eachother, but it's different for a plateau.

When height differences apply, line of sight also becomes a cone rather than a line of sorts, so any vertical obstacle in its path either in the hex the unit is in or in the next hex could block line of sight to part of the other hex.

Anyway, this is all abstract and it usually isn't a problem. There are uncommon situations where I initially expected a unit to be hidden when a unit in a certain hex tried to spot it but which wasn't the case when checking the visible hexes for that hex.

Units will not ignore AOF unless they have definitively been spotted or have fired themselves and removed their concealed status.

Thanks for the answers so far, but I'm still wondering how a unit would detect it has been spotted, if that's no longer automatic.

Using your example: let's say the enemy recon unit used recon spotting and suddenly the units he's adjacent to would be revealed. However, based on what you wrote earlier, the hidden units wouldn't be aware of that because they don't automatically detect they've been spotted.

What would trigger the defending units to open fire?

Also: let's say there's another attacking unit within normal visual range (as in: it can see the hex where the previously hidden units are in), would the defending units just be revealed to the recon unit or to this unit as well?

If so, and if the defending units don't detect they've been spotted, you could have a situation where the attacker can call in artillery fire possibly followed by direct fire where the attacker fires first, simply because the defending units are not aware they've been detected and are sticking to their opportunity fire preferences.

So, to break what I'm describing down into individual actions:

1) There's a (stack of) Soviet hidden unit(s) in a hex.

2) A German recon unit of a target type the defending units won't fire at moves adjacent to the stack.

3) It uses recon spotting to spot the hidden units. Possibly, air recon is used instead of recon spotting, but the result is that the Soviet unit(s) is/are revealed.
-First question: what happens to the opportunity fire preference of the Soviet unit(s), assuming they don't detect they've been spotted like you posted earlier?

4) Another German attacking unit is within visual range, but outside the opportunity fire preference range of the Soviet unit(s).
-Second question: are the hidden units now also visible to this unit?

5)In case the answer to that question is "yes", the German player now calls in artillery fire.
-Third question: what happens to the Soviet opportunity fire preferences now?

6) In case the answer to question 2 was yes, the German player selects the second unit (the one in visual range, but outside opportunity fire preference range) and fires with direct fire at the defending Soviet unit(s).
-Fourth question: what happens to the Soviet opportunity fire preferences now?

[ComradeP]

Some additional questions, sorry to give you such a headache David.

-What happens when a vehicle with passengers drives into a minefield, do both units (AFV+passengers) take losses "normally" even though the infantry isn't walking and thus less vulnerable to anti-personnel mines?

-What happens when a vehicle with passengers is fired at by an attacker without a soft attack value for that range (by a weapon with a greater hard attack range than soft attack range for example)? Can the passengers ever take losses from such an attack (possibly simulating tanks exploding after the ammo was hit or brewing up)?

-What happens if a vehicle is destroyed, and the unit of vehicles is no longer capable of carrying all of the passengers? Do the passengers automatically dismount the moment after the carrying capacity is exceeded or will the vehicle unit become "encumbered" (as they'd say in D&D) and would it not be able to move until the passengers are removed (like in PzC where the arrival of reinforcements or regaining strength can cause a stack to go over the stacking limit), with the passengers still staying on top of the vehicle until the player manually removes them on his next turn?

-What happens when a unit with passengers is merged into a bigger unit with platoons without passengers, if this is possible?

-Where do the passengers go when that unit is split-up again, provided the combining could take place?

-What happens when, as strengths are averaged out when broken down, when the multiple platoon/company unit is broken down none of its components would have enough vehicles to be able to carry the passengers, provided the combining could take place with passengers so they're still around?

-Are the opportunity fire preferences rounded up or down in terms of hexes? Say a unit is set to S with a maximum range of 4, does that mean it will fire at targets up to 2 hexes away or just the adjacent hex? Based on your description, I assume there's no way to have long range weapons only fire at targets adjacent to it or possibly up to 2 hexes. For example: the range 16 Tiger in the example would when set to S fire at targets at 5 or 6 hexes away, so still more than 1 kilometre away. The opportunity fire preference mechanism might as such give better results for shorter ranged units, because it's easier to set up an actual ambush with them.

[Xaver]

A little questions about converters, they are included in PzB 01??? if they are included, is possible convert maps from PzC??? if they are not included, i dont know if you try the converter with small maps from PzC but works good enough to release teaser mods??? i think in release a test mod with lets see a west scenario, a desert scenario and a east scenario (in other time period like 1941 or 44) all them from PzC titles and small to medium scenarios as a way to explore players preferences.

Every day i think more and more in a desert title in PzB as 2nd title in serie, is no east title, you have terrain to move and map is less "complex" than a regular west map... at least Tobruk41-El-Alamein, Tunis is a diferent taste, apart this i dont see imposible try Tobruk or El-Alamein as titles with a "full battle scenario" like the one you can find in Nap series, no linked scenarios, you play all in the same map in same scenario.

Well first we need see 01 but think in future titles is not bad hehehe.

ooo i dont remember say it, recover tanks is done in night BUT not all damage tanks need wait to special recover teams, i think repair a track, remove a damage wheel... this is why i think some way to have this in game is interesting at least in long scenarios... same in infantry, i think in a 1 day battle or if in future we can create long battles... maybe some kind of "clock" i explain this:

Lets see your unit lose a tank or soldiers, well, when you lose them start a "clock" with a value in PDT, this clock set a number of turns where the unit cant repair vehicles or recover stragglers, when clock arrive to 0 the classic PzC % to recover casualties appear and work... BUT only 50% of clock time, this leave you with recover in game BUT you cant use all time time and for night turns maybe another value in PDT but only in vehicle units and more as bonus, you know.

[Strela]

Units will not ignore AOF unless they have definitively been spotted or have fired themselves and removed their concealed status.

Thanks for the answers so far, but I'm still wondering how a unit would detect it has been spotted, if that's no longer automatic.

Using your example: let's say the enemy recon unit used recon spotting and suddenly the units he's adjacent to would be revealed. However, based on what you wrote earlier, the hidden units wouldn't be aware of that because they don't automatically detect they've been spotted.

What would trigger the defending units to open fire?

You're now starting to see the depth of nuance this feature can have.

I'll try and answer your questions with an example and see how I go....

As you are highlighting the concept of being concealed, using reconnaissance and controlling fire with the Assign Opportunity Fire (AOF) values are all inter-related. One of the beauties of this interrelation is that players may not KNOW they have been spotted. If a player has successfully used his recon assets to see an enemy, how would the enemy necessarily know that they had been spotted?

Also importantly AOF is ONLY for the defensive fire phase of the opponents turn. AOF tells the AI when it should consider breaking its concealment. Once a units has fired using AOF it's concealment is broken and it uses the normal defensive fire AI for any subsequent shots. Actions by the phasing player may reveal both his units and potentially the enemies. Non phasing players units will reveal themselves only via the AOF table or being spotted.


I went back and tested the code and setup an example scenario.

The forces included were a small German recon group and two stacks of Soviet infantry & AT Guns. The Soviets are all set to never fire using AOF.

Here are the units in the various stacks. The two stacks of Soviets are identical;



Here are the three hexes the stacks are in. All are grass and considered to give sufficient cover for concealment;



Here are the forces setup before running the scenario;



Here is what the German player sees in his first turn. No enemy units are visible.



The armoured car unit using recon spotting reveals an AT gun. This is the only hex that could be revealed as the other Soviet stack is out of line of sight (LOS) of the armoured car. Note the Russian infantry unit that is in the same hex as the AT gun was not revealed;



At this point the armoured car, aware that there is an AT Gun in the hex choses to try and not expose itself. It retreats back, hoping that it is out of LOS of any other concealed Soviets. Leaving the motorcycle unit behind allows the German to keep the revealed AT gun in LOS , but at the same time does not reveal the motorcycle as it has not spent any movement points.



Ending the turn, the Soviets see no enemy units at the start of their turn. If the Russian player had not watched the replay he would be unaware that a recon unit had been present and he would be unaware that any of his units had been spotted. The view from the Soviet perspective is unchanged;



At the start of the next German turn, the AT gun is still revealed as it remained in the LOS of the motorcycle platoon. The Germans can call in artillery on the spotted AT gun hex at full effect. Its important to note that this artillery could have been called in on the first turn as the motorcycle unit had not moved;



Calling artillery fire actually shows men being killed, despite them not being revealed. This is due to the alternate artillery rule that potentially hits all units in the hex;



You can also blind fire on suspected enemy positions (at 1/4 effect) in any hex in LOS;

---

To test the revealed AT guns response to enemy units the motorcycle platoon moves. The AT gun did not fire on it;



The Soviet AT gun does fire once at the armoured car once it moves in its LOS for a number of hexes;



To test the infantry, the turn is run again and the AT gun finally fires when the infantry are adjacent;



Ending the turn this is the view from the Soviet side. Both German recons are revealed as they have moved and remained in LOS. It is not clear to the Soviet player which of his forces (if any) have been revealed, but there has been some effective shelling of one of his positions;


From the German perspective, they can still only see the AT gun unit. The infantry stacked with the AT gun has not expended any movement points and not revealed itself despite being shelled, while the adjacent hex of Soviets remains concealed and its actions controlled by AOF;



So what does this all mean?


Most of these rules only apply to the enemy turn. AOF controls when units will fire and reveal themselves. Units will only opportunity fire if an enemy unit in LOS expends movement points and they are at a range that satisfies the AOF rules. Please note that indirect fire units only require a spotting unit to have LOS.

There is an important point that I clarified with John Tiller. Once a unit is revealed it always defaults to normal defensive fire. This means that units like the AT gun in our example ignore AOF and immediately default to the normal routines. These routines may choose not to fire with the unit at all and this may not be an indicator to a player that his unit has broken concealment. The code is written this way because John wanted AOF to be paired with persistent concealment and not to impact any other AI routines. I didn't understand that point until I clarified it.


Do let me check I answered your questions.

1) There's a (stack of) Soviet hidden unit(s) in a hex.
2) A German recon unit of a target type the defending units won't fire at moves adjacent to the stack.
3) It uses recon spotting to spot the hidden units. Possibly, air recon is used instead of recon spotting, but the result is that the Soviet unit(s) is/are revealed.

First question: what happens to the opportunity fire preference of the Soviet unit(s), assuming they don't detect they've been spotted like you posted earlier?

I was wrong. Once a unit loses concealment due to spotting (even if not obvious to the owning player) it ignores the opportunity fire preference and moves to the normal defensive fire routines. This does not mean it will fire, It may be like our example and only fire when units are close.

4) Another German attacking unit is within visual range, but outside the opportunity fire preference range of the Soviet unit(s).

Second question: are the hidden units now also visible to this unit?

Yes. It can be direct fired on by any unit in LOS or have indirect fire called in by units that have not expended movement points and have LOS.

5) In case the answer to that question is "yes", the German player now calls in artillery fire.

Third question: what happens to the Soviet opportunity fire preferences now?

As the unit has already been revealed, it ignores the AOF values. If it subsequently recovers persistent concealment then the AOF values determines when it will next fire.

6) In case the answer to question 2 was yes, the German player selects the second unit (the one in visual range, but outside opportunity fire preference range) and fires with direct fire at the defending Soviet unit(s).

Fourth question: what happens to the Soviet opportunity fire preferences now?

Same as the answer to your third question.


All in all, I am probably confusing more than I'm clarifying! These are routines that many of the testers didn't use and weren't aware existed. The players that did use AOF found they could do some clever things, but it was hard to be consistent with them. Where I think they will work particularly well is in HTH games where a couple of experienced players use the surprise value of persistent concealment. Only playing the game and trying these routines will show what they can be used for.

David

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Some additional questions, sorry to give you such a headache David.

-What happens when a vehicle with passengers drives into a minefield, do both units (AFV+passengers) take losses "normally" even though the infantry isn't walking and thus less vulnerable to anti-personnel mines?

-What happens when a vehicle with passengers is fired at by an attacker without a soft attack value for that range (by a weapon with a greater hard attack range than soft attack range for example)? Can the passengers ever take losses from such an attack (possibly simulating tanks exploding after the ammo was hit or brewing up)?

-What happens if a vehicle is destroyed, and the unit of vehicles is no longer capable of carrying all of the passengers? Do the passengers automatically dismount the moment after the carrying capacity is exceeded or will the vehicle unit become "encumbered" (as they'd say in D&D) and would it not be able to move until the passengers are removed (like in PzC where the arrival of reinforcements or regaining strength can cause a stack to go over the stacking limit), with the passengers still staying on top of the vehicle until the player manually removes them on his next turn?

-What happens when a unit with passengers is merged into a bigger unit with platoons without passengers, if this is possible?

-Where do the passengers go when that unit is split-up again, provided the combining could take place?

-What happens when, as strengths are averaged out when broken down, when the multiple platoon/company unit is broken down none of its components would have enough vehicles to be able to carry the passengers, provided the combining could take place with passengers so they're still around?

-Are the opportunity fire preferences rounded up or down in terms of hexes? Say a unit is set to S with a maximum range of 4, does that mean it will fire at targets up to 2 hexes away or just the adjacent hex? Based on your description, I assume there's no way to have long range weapons only fire at targets adjacent to it or possibly up to 2 hexes. For example: the range 16 Tiger in the example would when set to S fire at targets at 5 or 6 hexes away, so still more than 1 kilometre away. The opportunity fire preference mechanism might as such give better results for shorter ranged units, because it's easier to set up an actual ambush with them.

I need some time to test your questions in detail.

Here is the write-up I have in the FAQ.

Vehicles can carry foot infantry even if they are not transport units. These external riders are limited to 5 men per vehicle. Riding a tank into battle is extremely risky and this has been taken into account. There is a defense value in the parameter data file, called ‘Exterior Defense’ that sets the defense value of riders to 4 (vs. the normal 16). External riders can be fired on by soft attack values even when the transporting vehicle is hard. External riders will be eliminated when the vehicle they are on is in an assault, no matter whether they are attacking or defending in the assault. Finally, External riders are 4 times more vulnerable to minefield attacks.

David

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A little questions about converters, they are included in PzB 01??? if they are included, is possible convert maps from PzC??? if they are not included, i dont know if you try the converter with small maps from PzC but works good enough to release teaser mods??? i think in release a test mod with lets see a west scenario, a desert scenario and a east scenario (in other time period like 1941 or 44) all them from PzC titles and small to medium scenarios as a way to explore players preferences.

The converters are only for the designers.

You will get a tool where you can create sub-maps from any of the maps included with the game. This is the same as the tool currently available in Panzer Campaigns.

David

[ComradeP]

Thanks for the answers David!

External riders will be eliminated when the vehicle they are on is in an assault, no matter whether they are attacking or defending in the assault. Finally, External riders are 4 times more vulnerable to minefield attacks.

OK, I was wondering if the passengers would count for the "number of men needed to support vehicles attacking in difficult terrain" mechanic, but if they die when assaulting that's probably not the case.

On one hand, I can understand passengers being more vulnerable to minefield attacks if they're stuck in there, but on the other hand I don't as even if mines are popping up around them, they're not more vulnerable than when on foot and any mines going off under the tracks or hull of the vehicle won't hit them.

[Strela]

On one hand, I can understand passengers being more vulnerable to minefield attacks if they're stuck in there, but on the other hand I don't as even if mines are popping up around them, they're not more vulnerable than when on foot and any mines going off under the tracks or hull of the vehicle won't hit them.

I don't want to put a link here, but go and google IED's in Chechnya. Russian troops riding on BTR's & BMP's is very, very unhealthy. I would not want to be riding any vehicle that was in a minefield or anywhere near explosives/artillery strikes.

David

[ComradeP]

The payload/explosive force of your average IED is much greater than that of a regular WWII AT or AP mine.

It's not "safe" to ride on a tank through a minefield, but I don't think it's 4 times as deadly as walking through one.

[Xaver]

Thanks for the pics, damn, this OPFOR troops looks so... so... soviet!!!

Well, i suspect the reply to my answar but when i was a child a teacher taught me that there are no stupid questions but there are fools who do not ask

Ummm i understand now the spot system, compared with PzC is less friendly with attacker and help more defender but look interesting because improve a lot recon units value, not only as emergency patches to strengthen the defense and add an extra to infantry recon units... but maybe here i need ask this, recon spotting is only avaliable for recont units (defined as recon) or other units can do this??? i think in tanks with superior vision systems or regular infantry units (here with lower succes or using more action points compared with a pure recon unit).

Raiders... well, i understand that when they are assaulted suffer a total loss or practically be wiped out BUT in oposite situation??? i refer when a vehicle unit with raiders assault enemy... well, as abstraction i think they can add their assault value with no penalty to the vehicle assault value, apart the use of vehicles to move faster infantry and have their own "protection" unit VS enemy infantry AT teams the other point in have raiders is use them in assaults... here maybe i need ask if when a mech infantry unit (or motorized) assault in travel mode they suffer penalties in assault value apart the defensive penalties.

Well, continue working on it, 3 weeks and "winter is coming" i think we dont want miss the game when "others" invade Singapore

[Strela]

Ummm i understand now the spot system, compared with PzC is less friendly with attacker and help more defender but look interesting because improve a lot recon units value, not only as emergency patches to strengthen the defense and add an extra to infantry recon units... but maybe here i need ask this, recon spotting is only avaliable for recont units (defined as recon) or other units can do this??? i think in tanks with superior vision systems or regular infantry units (here with lower succes or using more action points compared with a pure recon unit).

Recon units are the only ones that can use recon spotting. Your specialist troops such as reconnaissance and engineers are very, very precious.

Raiders... well, i understand that when they are assaulted suffer a total loss or practically be wiped out BUT in oposite situation??? i refer when a vehicle unit with raiders assault enemy... well, as abstraction i think they can add their assault value with no penalty to the vehicle assault value, apart the use of vehicles to move faster infantry and have their own "protection" unit VS enemy infantry AT teams the other point in have raiders is use them in assaults... here maybe i need ask if when a mech infantry unit (or motorized) assault in travel mode they suffer penalties in assault value apart the defensive penalties.

It's very clear in this statement;

External riders will be eliminated when the vehicle they are on is in an assault, no matter whether they are attacking or defending in the assault.

The riders will wiped out if on a tank is in an assault. They would be shot off the back before they got close. The moral of the story is get off the tanks before you reach the enemy line of resistance.

As far as Mech/Motorized troops, like all units in travel mode they get big penalties for being in an assault in that state.

David