The Competition & Teaser Thread

[GerryM]

Is either one, regiment or brigade, above the other in the hierarchy?

Thanks for the help.

Gerry

[Liebchen]

If you mean what is the difference between a regiment and a brigade it would be that a brigade has a few more units than a regiment. basically a beefed up regiment.

A brigade is also usually an independent organization, whereas a regiment is usually part of a division. At least, that's always been my observation; I can't say that it is part of their definitions.

[Strela]

If you mean what is the difference between a regiment and a brigade it would be that a brigade has a few more units than a regiment. basically a beefed up regiment.

A brigade is also usually an independent organization, whereas a regiment is usually part of a division. At least, that's always been my observation; I can't say that it is part of their definitions.

They are definitely used loosely from military to military.

The general rule is that a Brigade is bigger then a Regiment but you can't compare different armies with that rule.

A German Panzer Regiment will have more Tanks than a Russian Tank Brigade for example. That said a Russian Tank Regiment does have less tanks than a Russian Tank Brigade.

There is story attributed to Stalin that when the Russians created the first new Anti-Aircraft units after the outbreak of war, he had them named as Regiments rather than Battalions, which due to their small size they were. Stalin's rationale is that a man commanding a Regiment was someone to respect, a Battalion definitely less so.....

David

[ComradeP]

I love puzzles, but that screenshot is making my head spin for the moment.

According to the OOB I have in front of me, the only Tank Corps with a Guards Tank Regiment directly attached to it at Kursk was the 18th. However, the depicted Tank Corps also has a Guards Mortar battalion or something like that, which the 18th didn't have according to this OOB.

There were only two Guards Mechanized Corps in the central part of the Kursk area, the 3rd and the 5th. The 6th participated in Kutuzov. The dimensions of the map seem to limit the map to from the active parts of 4th Panzer Army and III Panzer Korps units up to Prokhorovka.

The area looks somewhat similar to what the Msensk area looks like in Moscow '42, and there is a north/south major road that might be it, but the dimensions of the map prevent it from including the area Kutuzov was launched in and on the Moscow '42 there is no swampy terrain in the area. Furthermore, all units presented thus far were situated in the south.

That means that unless north isn't actually north on this map, it has to be the eastern flank of Kempf or something like that as the fact that all of III Panzer Korps divisional commanders are there and not them+replacements (which the title supports) precludes Rumyantsev being included, which in turn gives its own problems.

In terms of dimensions, the scenario in the screenshot covers about a quarter of the main map on the X axis and about a third on the Y axis.

The main thing that makes this difficult to solve is: what is that Guards Mechanized Corps doing there if it isn't the 5th? The Rumyantsev attacks came in primarily from the north, in this case they come in from the east along some 30-ish kilometres of the front. Another question is who the guys in light blue are and why they have Tigers.

[Strela]

I love puzzles, but that screenshot is making my head spin for the moment.

According to the OOB I have in front of me, the only Tank Corps with a Guards Tank Regiment directly attached to it at Kursk was the 18th. However, the depicted Tank Corps also has a Guards Mortar battalion or something like that, which the 18th didn't have according to this OOB.

There were only two Guards Mechanized Corps in the central part of the Kursk area, the 3rd and the 5th. The 6th participated in Kutuzov. The dimensions of the map seem to limit the map to from the active parts of 4th Panzer Army and III Panzer Korps units up to Prokhorovka.

The area looks somewhat similar to what the Msensk area looks like in Moscow '42, and there is a north/south major road that might be it, but the dimensions of the map prevent it from including the area Kutuzov was launched in and on the Moscow '42 there is no swampy terrain in the area. Furthermore, all units presented thus far were situated in the south.

That means that unless north isn't actually north on this map, it has to be the eastern flank of Kempf or something like that as the fact that all of III Panzer Korps divisional commanders are there and not them+replacements (which the title supports) precludes Rumyantsev being included, which in turn gives its own problems.

In terms of dimensions, the scenario in the screenshot covers about a quarter of the main map on the X axis and about a third on the Y axis.

The main thing that makes this difficult to solve is: what is that Guards Mechanized Corps doing there if it isn't the 5th? The Rumyantsev attacks came in primarily from the north, in this case they come in from the east along some 30-ish kilometres of the front. Another question is who the guys in light blue are and why they have Tigers.

ComradeP,

I'm sitting here smiling. You could tie yourself in knots trying to work out what your looking at without guidance.

I haven't seen posted anywhere a Guards Mortar unit with the aforementioned Tank Corp - where did you get that idea? I have just gone through the thread and I can't see anything here...?

North is north.

In terms of dimensions I mentioned earlier in the thread that the entire game map is 299 x 341 = 101,959 hexes. The scenario shown in the jump map is 77 x 121 = 9,317 hexes. That's a 'massive' 9.14% of the total map covered in that scenario

As far as the colours of units we have not used the 'traditional' Black for SS etc.

I spent a lot of time experimenting with different counter colours with the aim of making them easy on 'ageing' eyes

We ended up deciding on slightly lighter colours but still based close to the traditional hues. You can see below that the Wehrmacht, though light blue in the centre is based on Grey/Green while the Luftwaffe uses a more Royal blue with a similar centre. The SS are shades of grey. The Soviets took time to determine and the Guards were probably the hardest to get right. If the red is too saturated it ends up looking garish. We think we got it pretty close in the end.


Here are examples of each Nationality at 1 to 1 size (Divisional markings are off);




Here is the same shot expanded (in Photoshop) to twice the size - it shows the counter detail pretty clearly.




David

[ComradeP]

I'm sitting here smiling. You could tie yourself in knots trying to work out what your looking at without guidance.

Yeah, Xaver and me have been on a mad frenzy to make the most out of every scrap of information you've been giving us. You might've been waging a maskirovka campaign that would've made Stavka proud if this isn't a Kursk game somehow.

I haven't seen posted anywhere a Guards Mortar unit with the aforementioned Tank Corp - where did you get that idea? I have just gone through the thread and I can't see anything here...?

In that zoomed out screenshot of the large scenario, there is what looks like a Guards Mortar/Katyusha icon 11 hexes down from the top of the map with the Tank Corps with the Guards (Heavy) Tank Regiment.

After thinking about it, I guess that my error might be that I overestimate the scale of the depicted units. For example: if that collection of Guards Rifle units is in fact 3 battalions in a row, the unit is most likely a Guards Tank Corps. My assumption that with this many infantry units, it would be a Guards Mechanized Corps. Similarly, the Guards unit in the center is presumably a Guards brigade (though there's a regimental HQ) of some sort and not a full division.

You've made it a lot more difficult with what seem to be partial units in the north. If they're just elements of Tank Corps (missing their Motorized Rifle brigade), at least my guess for those units might be accurate (with a battalion HQ for the Motorized Rifle companies attached to each of the Tank Brigades). The HQ's without a visible scale indicator would be the corps HQ's, unless my eyes deceive me there are X's on the other HQ's.

If the Wehrmacht is light blue, that changes things. Furthermore, that does mean the other units are SS so my initial guess might've been less far from the mark than I assumed. The nearly straight frontline with the Soviets coming in more or less directly from the (north)east is still peculiar if it isn't Prokhorovka. I'll check a map of II SS Panzer Korps' march route, maybe that will clear things up.

[Xaver]

Thanks for the pics Strela, i am ready with my laboraty of frankenmods hehehe, i am going to do some cut+paste work maybe add to minifields Jison minefield icon (over the mines the panel) and of course repaint the defensive works borders, is not a problem with the colours used is more a personal feeling, after years where i see yellow as IP and green as trench... and after touch this leave bunkers/pillboxes stock ... well depends.

Well, in the last days appear info that made ComradeP and me doubt about or sure "PzB Kursk South flank" prediction... i feel like a mouse used by cats as toy

Brigade or regiment... well, brigades are usually independent formations, they are like minidivisions with all support units like in a division but in smaller scale, regiments has less support units even when they can fight alone they are more dependent of division to receive support (heavy arty, AAA, technical support...), of course are exceptions and depend a lot of period and army for example you have soviet infantry brigades in 1942 that work as total independent units with their own arty, and support units and the british brigades, they can fight alone but they are part of a division and are not 100% independent... in UK case i feel like when i read about the ACW regiments... they where in all aspects battalions but they were named as regiments, something like germans and the stug brigades in name, battalions in equipment.

In the end the only diference in PzC game (and i think in PzB to) between a brigade and a regiment could be the command range in HQ and the size... apart the unit symbol, x is a brigade HQ and III a regimental HQ, well, in PzC there is other diference, usually regiments doesnt have HQ and brigades allways have one but not in all titles.

PD: an example of my franken mods... i dont know if you see Volcanoman Nap mods... well, he create a NATO icon model for infantry in green, red for arty and gold for mounted units... well, i cut this icons and use them in EAW, ACW and REN and looks fine for me.

Nap

ACW

REN

[ComradeP]

Well, in the last days appear info that made ComradeP and me doubt about or sure "PzB Kursk South flank" prediction... i feel like a mouse used by cats as toy Big Grin2

Well, there are still many signs pointing to Kursk, including how nicely the map would fit in terms of dimensions. 6th Guards Army's there, II SS Panzer Korps (presumably), III Panzer Korps, 5th Guards Tank Army and crucially: commanders for III Panzer Korps that died or were no longer in command shortly after the battle. Equally important, the Panzer divisions that were shown to be in III Panzer Korps were no longer all in III Panzer Korps in August (although I'm not sure of the precise dates).

There are other signs too. For example, the Mius operation was fought mostly by 2 Guards formations. The attacks near Izuym were launched by, I believe, 2 mobile corps. In the screenshot of the larger scenario, we can see what looks like (elements of) at least 3 Tank Corps.

All my German and English sources on Kursk are elsewhere, so I can only work with Soviet sources and sadly those don't show the precise route of advance or retreat of II SS Panzer Korps.

The Germans seem to be in a balanced defensive deployment.

The road still troubles me. If you look at these maps, only one major road is indicated and it bends the wrong way in the place where it comes close to the river in the SS's movement path. Furthermore, the map in the scenario is 30 kilometres high, which really doesn't fit, unless that grey thing is actually a railroad for some reason in which case it could be an initial Soviet counterattack.

The map isn't big enough to cover Rumyantsev, not to mention that when it started the SS was in Italy, near Izyum or at the Mius. When Das Reich and Totenkopf counterattacked, the frontline wasn't nearly as neatly straight as in that screenshot at the Mius and they attacked from the south during Rumyantsev.

Ah well, we might feel silly around release when it's something completely different, but I'm just not really sure what else it could be.

[Strela]

In that zoomed out screenshot of the large scenario, there is what looks like a Guards Mortar/Katyusha icon 11 hexes down from the top of the map with the Tank Corps with the Guards (Heavy) Tank Regiment.

You've just blown my mind that you've looked at the screenshot THAT closely!!! I'm going to have to be even more careful with what I post now!!

Again to help you out a little as this is the 'Teaser' thread, you're right that rocket unit is organic to the unit shown. That's proven by the fact that the divisional markings are the same.

All in all, you're making very educated guesses!!!

David

[Aaron]

If you mean what is the difference between a regiment and a brigade it would be that a brigade has a few more units than a regiment. basically a beefed up regiment.

A brigade is also usually an independent organization, whereas a regiment is usually part of a division. At least, that's always been my observation; I can't say that it is part of their definitions.

In Soviet structure in more modern times a brigade is usually bigger but the important thing is a brigade is parted out to support other units while a regiment fights as a whole.

Thats why in most cases you have engineer brigades and such at army level to part out to the divisions and engineer regiments are a different org that fight as a whole.

As manuver units go ull never see a bde in a division, all rgt. Rgt are assigned to divisions and bde are independent. Take the Soviet bde facing berlin, not only bigger than a rgt in a division with an extra tank bn but called a bde because its independent.